\
and with an attitude like that, my mother would tell you to go fuck yourself. (and i say: what do you need a man's ten fingers for anyway! it's related. if men suck so bad, then ditch 'em! heh. why the constant carping. you were capable of, at one point, glowing about their bodies. if you can see both good and bad in american men, then why not in the culture of the nation you live in? if you can drape yourself in the Bill of Rights, a product of the US, then... what?)) and the funny thing is, she wouldn't have said that 20 years ago. she says that now because she's fed up with shit that's going on around her. my mother would pay 70% of her taxes to make sure people have health care and decent housing. there's something going on there, and i'm pretty sure she's not unique to hold these contradictory views. it's a confusing fucking world out there for most people.
but instead of latching on to that, finding out what's eating her and others like her, people here would rather attack the obviously hyperbolic, 'we're the greatest nation on earth' part and ignore the rest. the question was: do you want to criticize the US to make it better, to make it live up to its ideals, or do you believe it has nothing to salvage at all. are you capable of recognizing that people who don't belong to your lifestyle enclave might just be good and decent people who are as capable as you of becoming part of the enlightenederati?
what i see going on repeatedly is a kind of implicit assumption that the enlightenerati are special and everyone else is a hopeless fool. if you have that sort of attitude, you're no different, IMV, than libertarians who go on about how all the sheeple are lost, duped by the .gov. if you want to exude that kind of attitude, you're going to lose any hope of being taken seriously by anyone. what was it carrol once said to me, that people aren't capable of more than a trade union consciousness so we can't count on them? he was talking about his experience with postal workers unions/his wife.
well, there ya go....
i don't really want to engage in this discussion yet one more time. so have fun.
kelley
(ihave a hard time saying this kind of thing because i think it encourages nationalism. but i sincerely believe in the power of internal critique. and i sincerely believe that it is better to engage in what i understand is the centerpiece of a dialectical analysis: you don't throw the baby out with the disposable diaper.)
At 10:17 AM 5/30/02 -0700, joanna bujes wrote:
>At 01:08 PM 05/30/2002 -0400, Kelly wrote:
>
>>Chomsky's response is lame. People want to hear him say and mean it: I live
>>in the greatest country on the planet. they want to hear him say, I love
>>this country so fucking much that I want us to do better. I love the
>>people in this country. I know we're a compassionate people. I know we want
>>freedom and equality and peace. And I want our nation state to do what i
>>know American people stand for because I know they don't stand for death,
>>destruction, and terror.
>
>Why is this the greatest country in the world? Is patriotism the point
>where your imagination stops? Is there no greater good than the U.S.?
>
>Are we a compassionate people? Evidence? Are we not directly involved or
>complicit in killing/enslaving millions of people? For what? To further
>"democracy"?
>
>
>>Now, I don't know if Chomsky is capable of that. Are any of us capable of
>>saying the above and meaning it? Do you want to criticize the US because
>>you think the US is a nation of good and decent people, etc? I think that,
>>on some left principles, it is anathema to say that. I think Chuck
>>described it as selling out or something.
>
>I am not capable of saying that and meaning it. I continue to live in the
>U.S. because my family and friends are here, and because if people like me
>(the political opposition) leave, things will get worse.
>
>Joanna
>