>Now, y'all can go on about how America sucks, but it just doesn't play
> >well in Peoria if that's the only thing you can say about the US. Why >do
>people come to the US, Bennettbarf asks, if it is so horrible. Why, >hell,
>we bailed Europe out twice in the last century and we saved >eastern Europe
>from the communist evildoers. what is your problem, >Noam buddy, if you
>can't talk about that too?!
>Chomsky's response is lame. People want to hear him say and mean it: I
> >live in the greatest country on the planet. they want to hear him say, >I
>love this country so fucking much that I want us to do better. I >love the
>people in this country. I know we're a compassionate people. >I know we
>want freedom and equality and peace. And I want our nation >state to do
>what i know American people stand for because I know they >don't stand for
>death, destruction, and terror.
>Now, I don't know if Chomsky is capable of that. Are any of us capable >of
>saying the above and meaning it? Do you want to criticize the US >because
>you think the US is a nation of good and decent people, etc? I think
> >that,on some left principles, it is anathema to say that. I think >Chuck
>described it as selling out or something.
>
>beats me.
>kelley
I would've liked to have heard Chomsky's response, and why it was "lame." Too intellectual? From the sounds of it, it wasn't emotional and sentimental enough, compared to his opponent's words (probably wasn't a pack of lies, either).
I can understand people wanting things this important put into verbiage that would resonate with them, but why on Earth should he lie to them? Why not state the truth as a riposte, that Americans are not some "worthy people," who are more sinned against than sinning? That they're like most people, not having any particular gripe against this person or that, but treated like mushrooms (either intentionally or not). Then again, I would expect most people don't want to hear some nonsense like truth when they're raised on a diet of horse-shit and they "know" there's no alternative.
Some people here can probably do it, but I thought one of the key tenets of being a "progressive" was a movement away from nationalism, or at least acknowledging (and teaching) one nationalism among many. The US, as a political entity, is just, to put it incredibly reductively, the biggest bastard in a whole pack of them, following capital's lead.
Chuck says:
>Ah, here we go, just read Kelley channelling her mother-in-law. So
>sure, let's get it out. Fuck the US. We are an asshole people,
>stingy, mean, stupid, and brutal. I have no idea why people come
>here. Explain it to me again. I don't get it.
>And yes, I am completely incapable of saying one decent word about
>this jerk-off country---except I like Berkeley. What are you going to
>do about?
Christ, Chuck, you just described the majority of humanity, a good deal of the time! Why the US exceptionalism again?
Why do people go there? For pretty much the same reasons they come to Canada (or France, Germany, Britain, etc.): relatively less oppressive, relatively more money to be had, relatively less violence, etc. Or, at least, that's what they hope/perceive, I guess. I'm suddenly reminded of this scene from one of Piers Anthony's series, "Incarnations of Immortality": a line of refugees moving away from a burning city, and a line of refugees, on the opposite side, moving towards it. The hero asks the immortal War why this is happening, and War answers the equivalent of "the grass is always greener . . .".
Doug said:
>It never hurts, and isn't entirely disingenuous, to damn the leaders and
>flatter the masses.
Oooo, you populist dog, you! Maybe Chomsky could've put in a few choice words about trains running on time, eh? !{)>
and Gordon says:
>I don't think anyone is going to accomplish much with
>television. Generally, people's political understanding
>has to come out of their experiences. Watching television is
>not generally speaking much of an experience. It seems to
>produce a trancelike, druggy state of mind most conducive to
>relaxed entertainments like sports and variety shows.
It could be useful for "priming the pump," getting people to at least start thinking, no?
Todd
_________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com