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On Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:45:12
joanna bujes wrote:
>At 09:24 PM 10/22/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>>Now, where did I say that, Joanna??? All I said was that if prostitution
>>was decriminalized and reformed so that those who are really being
>>oppressed could leave it while those who weren't could freely exercise it
>>as a choice, more people would choose it and still maintain their
>>progressive politics. Besides, I wasn't just talking about prostitution;
>>I refered to the entire medium of erotic entertainment.
>
>First, I'm not having a meltdown. I'm simply arguing with you in rather
>measured terms. In fact, characterizing a woman's reaction as "hysterical"
>is a fairly sexist thing to do.
Sorry, Joanna, but you're attacking a straw man, not addressing my point. I used the term "meltdown" as a metaphor, not literally. And nowhere do I ever use the term "hysterical" in any of my posts here.
>
>I know you weren't just talking about prostitution, but you were also
>talking about prostitution. So, what you're saying is that if prostitution
>were decriminalized and reformed (though I'm not clear what this reform
>would be about), then progressives (which is also a little fuzzy), but
>let's just say "people who believe in the inherent value of justice,
>freedom, and human dignity" ...these people could go visit a prostitute,
>pay her money in exchange for sexual favors, and walk away maintaining
>their belief in the value of justice, freedom, and human dignity. Is this
>what you're saying?
>
In a word, yes....if you happen to believe that the exchange of money for consensual sex is not a problem. Apparently, you just so happen to strongly disagree with that view, and I woudn't ever begrudge you your right to believe that; but please don't bring the feminist guilt trip on me.
Since you are not aware of what rehabilitation and legalization of the sex industry would look like, I'll spell it out for you: in my ideal world, sex work would be considered as much a profession as doctors, lawyers, and other service professionals. It just so happens that the service that they would offer is as legitimate as any other human desire. (What's up with the misquotes, BTW???)
>> >
>> >>You don't have to like what other people do with their bodies, but as long
>> >>as they respect the integrity and the sensibilities of other people, I
>> >>don't think that their personal sex lives should be an issue for
>> condemnation.
>> >
>> >Please explain to me how I am respecting the integrity and sensibility of a
>> >woman (or man) whom I pay for sex....not to mention my own integrity or
>> >sensibility.
>>
>>Well, you tell me how I am NOT respecting the integrity and sensibility of
>>the cashier at the local Wal-Mart when I pay for groceries. In this
>>system of capitilism EVERYTHING is commodified; why should sex be any
>>different??? Of course, in a different system, maybe sex would be freely
>>sought and freely given; but in the meantime, sex work is for most people
>>the only means to satisfy their legitimate sexual urges. If you don't
>>happen to believe that these urges are legitimate, then that's your
>>position; I simply happen to disagree.
>
>So, you assert that commodification and alienation are bad, but since
>everything is commodified and since we are all alienated, then why should
>we not also commodify and alienate our sexual selves?....well, given a
>choice, why should we?
Ahhh, yes...."commodify and alienate our sexual selves"!!! That's precisely the moralism that I have been critisizing!!! I guess that in your perfect world, Joanna, there would be no need for prostitution or any type of "alienated", "commodified" sexuality because everyone would be trained in the art of politically correct, totally "egalitarian" sex stripped of all of that bad, evil (why not add "degrading" and make it the perfect trifecta??) The very fact that real people tend not to follow simplistic political agendas in their true sexual desires and beings seems to be irrelevant to you; everything must be reduced to the political sphere.
>
>As for "sex work is for most people the only means to satisfy their
>legitimate sexual urges"....most people? really?
Yes, Joanna, really....sometimes men and women get horny, and they can't rely on their significant mates to relieve their desires. Would you prefer that they repress these desires just for the sake of "anti-commodification"??
>
>Do I believe that sexual urges are legitimate? That's not the issue. They
>exist: people get horny. But there's no direct link between sexual urges
>and visiting a prostitute that I can think of.
>
>Joanna
>
Ask any horny man or woman who's been rejected by his/her partner and he or she will beg to differ with that.
Anthony (A dildo is an object; a prostitute (or a sex worker) and her clients are real human beings. Why can't some people accept that basic fact???)
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