It's true -- Hitchens & Ali are shiny windbags who mirror one another more and more. The inflated self-importance, the conceit, the up-turned nose dismissal of those who dare disagree with them. Pro wrestlers have more dignity.
Caught Andrew Cockburn on CNN Friday. The often-forgotten and overlooked son of Claud (I recall his pained expression when an older woman shook his hand after a NYC event and told him, "I really enjoy Alexander's Nation column") appears as a serious and careful reporter, free of the wilder rhetorical excess of his older sibling. He seems to have found a media niche as an expert on Iraq (helped no doubt by his book on Saddam, co-authored with brother Patrick). Here's the transcript.
WOLF BLITZER: He recently threw a wrench into U.S. plans for a hand over of power in Iraq when he insisted that a constitution and a new government must be based on direct elections. American officials are learning that the country's top Shiite leader, the Grand Ayatollah Ali Al-Sistani, is not a man to be taken lightly.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER (voice-over): Born in Iran, he came to Iraq as a young man to study in the holy city of Najaf, where Iran's own Ayatollah Khomeini spent his long years of exile. The 71-year-old Sistani is considered by many to be the most revered and most influential leader among Iraq's 15 million Shiite Muslims who make up 60 percent of the country's population.
When another Shiite leader was killed in a massive car bombing in Najaf a few months ago, hundreds of thousands converged on the city in mourning. It is a powerful, passionate and highly committed constituency, one which the U.S. is treating gingerly.
PAUL BREMER, U.S. CIVIL ADMINISTRATOR IN IRAQ: I have very great respect for Ayatollah Sistani. He has been a leading voice in this country now for half a century. And I have real agreement with him on a number of matters.
BLITZER: During the regime of Saddam Hussein, a Sunni Muslim, Shiites were oppressed. And when they answered a U.S. call to revolt after the first Gulf War, tens of thousands were slaughtered. Free now to live the way they want, they now want their share of power.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Does Ayatollah Ali Al-Sistani hold the key to Iraq's future? Does he see an Islamic state in that future?
Joining us now, Andrew Cockburn. He's written widely on defense and international affairs, co-authored "Out of the Ashes: The Resurrection of Saddam Hussein."
Andrew, thanks very much for joining us. How powerful of a guy is this ayatollah?
ANDREW COCKBURN, AUTHOR: He is extremely powerful. He probably is, as you said, the most influential man in Iraq. I mean, the Shia, there's probably 14, 15 million of them; no one knows for sure. Most of them follow him. I mean, he is their guide.
BLITZER: And he wants a fundamentalist Islamic ayatollah-led state in Iraq?
COCKBURN: No, not entirely. What he's demanding is that Iraqis be allowed to vote on their new constitution. Or rather that anyone who writes the constitution has been to be elected.
BLITZER: But doesn't he believe the 60 percent who are Shia will vote for that form of regime?
COCKBURN: Well, yes and no. I mean, he thinks -- he wants Islam in the constitution. But he is not Ayatollah Khomeni. In fact, he opposed Khomeini's idea that the clerics should be...
BLITZER: When Americans hear the words "Grand Ayatollah," they shouldn't necessarily jump to conclusion that is what Al-Sistani wants is what happened in Iran?
COCKBURN: Right. I mean, a turban and a beard tends to bring people out, but it wouldn't necessarily be the case here.
BLITZER: You write in the "L.A. Times" today, "Iraqis tend to disagree about a lot of things. On one matter, however, they almost invariably present a United front. Iraq is one country, and they are Iraqis first, and Sunnis and Shiites second."
Some Iraqi experts disagree. They think that the Shiites and the Sunnis, the Kurds, eventually are going to be at each other's threats.
COCKBURN: Yes, but those Iraqis experts tend not to be Iraqi. I mean, I'm just presenting the views of pretty much every Iraqi I ever met, ever talked to about this. And they all say that. Even the Kurds these days tend to say that. So I go with them.
BLITZER: Will he be on board, the Grand Ayatollah, on this scheme to have these caucuses, if you will, in the 18 provinces of Iraq in June, as opposed to free and democratic elections? Bremer says there's no way they can get these elections under way by then.
COCKBURN: He will not be on board. He is absolutely -- he is not giving in on this. I mean, Bremer and other people have thought they could fudge it, thought he'd go along.
He won't. He is absolutely adamant. He's saying, if you're going to do something as important as this, the people, the representatives have to be elected. And he's pointed out there are ways you could do it. It's probably not true that you couldn't do it, by the way.
BLITZER: So what do you see happening in the coming months?
COCKBURN: Well, I think it's going to get quite serious. I think that the occupational authorities, Mr. Bremer and others, don't realize how unyielding the ayatollah is on this, on his demand for free elections. '
He's not going to give in. He's going to declare any alternative mechanism illegitimate. He'll pull -- people who respect him are going to pull out of the Governing Council.
There probably will be demonstrations. I don't think -- he's not going to call for violence. He's not going to call for armed resistance because he's not that kind of guy. But I think that the occupation is facing a real problem in this angry ayatollah.
BLITZER: Not a pretty picture. What a complicated situation it is in Iraq. Andrew Cockburn, as usual, thanks very much.
COCKBURN: You're welcome.BLITZER: He recently threw a wrench into U.S. plans for a hand over of power in Iraq when he insisted that a constitution and a new government must be based on direct elections. American officials are learning that the country's top Shiite leader, the Grand Ayatollah Ali Al-Sistani, is not a man to be taken lightly.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER (voice-over): Born in Iran, he came to Iraq as a young man to study in the holy city of Najaf, where Iran's own Ayatollah Khomeini spent his long years of exile. The 71-year-old Sistani is considered by many to be the most revered and most influential leader among Iraq's 15 million Shiite Muslims who make up 60 percent of the country's population.
When another Shiite leader was killed in a massive car bombing in Najaf a few months ago, hundreds of thousands converged on the city in mourning. It is a powerful, passionate and highly committed constituency, one which the U.S. is treating gingerly.
PAUL BREMER, U.S. CIVIL ADMINISTRATOR IN IRAQ: I have very great respect for Ayatollah Sistani. He has been a leading voice in this country now for half a century. And I have real agreement with him on a number of matters.
BLITZER: During the regime of Saddam Hussein, a Sunni Muslim, Shiites were oppressed. And when they answered a U.S. call to revolt after the first Gulf War, tens of thousands were slaughtered. Free now to live the way they want, they now want their share of power.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Does Ayatollah Ali Al-Sistani hold the key to Iraq's future? Does he see an Islamic state in that future?
Joining us now, Andrew Cockburn. He's written widely on defense and international affairs, co-authored "Out of the Ashes: The Resurrection of Saddam Hussein."
Andrew, thanks very much for joining us. How powerful of a guy is this ayatollah?
ANDREW COCKBURN, AUTHOR: He is extremely powerful. He probably is, as you said, the most influential man in Iraq. I mean, the Shia, there's probably 14, 15 million of them; no one knows for sure. Most of them follow him. I mean, he is their guide.
BLITZER: And he wants a fundamentalist Islamic ayatollah-led state in Iraq?
COCKBURN: No, not entirely. What he's demanding is that Iraqis be allowed to vote on their new constitution. Or rather that anyone who writes the constitution has been to be elected. BLITZER: But doesn't he believe the 60 percent who are Shia will vote for that form of regime?
COCKBURN: Well, yes and no. I mean, he thinks -- he wants Islam in the constitution. But he is not Ayatollah Khomeni. In fact, he opposed Khomeini's idea that the clerics should be...
BLITZER: When Americans hear the words "Grand Ayatollah," they shouldn't necessarily jump to conclusion that is what Al-Sistani wants is what happened in Iran?
COCKBURN: Right. I mean, a turban and a beard tends to bring people out, but it wouldn't necessarily be the case here.
BLITZER: You write in the "L.A. Times" today, "Iraqis tend to disagree about a lot of things. On one matter, however, they almost invariably present a United front. Iraq is one country, and they are Iraqis first, and Sunnis and Shiites second."
Some Iraqi experts disagree. They think that the Shiites and the Sunnis, the Kurds, eventually are going to be at each other's threats.
COCKBURN: Yes, but those Iraqis experts tend not to be Iraqi. I mean, I'm just presenting the views of pretty much every Iraqi I ever met, ever talked to about this. And they all say that. Even the Kurds these days tend to say that. So I go with them.
BLITZER: Will he be on board, the Grand Ayatollah, on this scheme to have these caucuses, if you will, in the 18 provinces of Iraq in June, as opposed to free and democratic elections? Bremer says there's no way they can get these elections under way by then.
COCKBURN: He will not be on board. He is absolutely -- he is not giving in on this. I mean, Bremer and other people have thought they could fudge it, thought he'd go along.
He won't. He is absolutely adamant. He's saying, if you're going to do something as important as this, the people, the representatives have to be elected. And he's pointed out there are ways you could do it. It's probably not true that you couldn't do it, by the way.
BLITZER: So what do you see happening in the coming months?
COCKBURN: Well, I think it's going to get quite serious. I think that the occupational authorities, Mr. Bremer and others, don't realize how unyielding the ayatollah is on this, on his demand for free elections. '
He's not going to give in. He's going to declare any alternative mechanism illegitimate. He'll pull -- people who respect him are going to pull out of the Governing Council.
There probably will be demonstrations. I don't think -- he's not going to call for violence. He's not going to call for armed resistance because he's not that kind of guy. But I think that the occupation is facing a real problem in this angry ayatollah.
BLITZER: Not a pretty picture. What a complicated situation it is in Iraq. Andrew Cockburn, as usual, thanks very much.
COCKBURN: You're welcome.
DP