I'm starting to doubt whether discussion with N/A on thsi point is worthwile, but I don't think the problem is with the attribution of ED to Marx. Hw sometimes maintained several theses that, in suitably strong form, could plausibly be described that way, and many Marxists have thought that these theses were actually true, Gerry Cohen being the latest. ED is not an insult, it's just a thesis. It might or might not be true in some sense. In the weak sense that therea re economic conditions for the existence of certain social formations, necessary but not sufficient, I regard it as obviously true. And so do you. Communism or even socialism is impossible in a complex society unless the priductive forces are highly developed. The problem with N/A is that he fails to see that he has not identified any sense of ED in which that doctrine is tied to Marx's thesis that the workers need a workers state. When this is pointed out, he shifts ground entirely and starts talking about how anarchism has been vindicated against Marxist theories of the state because it weas prophetic. That has nothing to do with ED. Since there has been no progress on this score in the thread, I'm signing off the discussion. jks
Carrol Cox <cbcox at ilstu.edu> wrote:
Carrol Cox wrote:
>
>
>
> I think you are wasting your time, Justin, in arguing with people who
> only want to have a label to put on what they don't like so they can
> forget about it.
>
> Endless chatter about "determinism" is childish.
>
To avoid misconstrual, and to stick to my metaphor: I think Justin is attempting to give adult answers to childish questions. And that is usually a waste of breath. For the most part those who babble of Marx's (or Marxists') "economic determinism" simply don't know what they are saying, and are not about to take any answer except simple confirmation seriously. They will not be able to _see_ or _hear_ any answer which does not conform to their mechanical presuppositions, and those mechanical presuppositions make the phrase "Marx's economic determinism" a mere tautology.
Carrol
> Carrol
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