[lbo-talk] Re: Lieberman

Brad Mayer bradley.mayer at sun.com
Fri Jul 11 12:43:09 PDT 2003


Please stop the moronic Nader-bashing. Dean/McGovern is much more valuable to the Repubs.

Please, American progressive Left, drop the childish habit of wish-projecting your own politics onto an alien body, the Democratic Party. It will never adopt and implement you politics. Never. Even if it wanted to.

Stop confounding your desire for the lesser evil - now burning brighter than ever in the face of the "evil" Bush - with that for the success of your political program. If you want the Dems to win the Presidency, you'd better hope they nominate a DLC-approved "centrist" opposed to your progressive agenda but with a chance in hell of winning, and not someone like Dean. Rove is praying for Dean.

Sorry for being abrasive, but I've been listening to the same old crap every 2-4 years for the last 30 years, and all the while the purveyers of the crap never take the time to pull their heads out of their ass to take a look around and see if their "strategy" - really just an infantile projection/confusion - is working. Have we moved forward? No, we've moved backward, obviously.

Please disregard the prog "analysis" that says that the reason the Dems lose is because "they've moved away from their roots" to the right, therefore providing no "alternative" to the electorate. The proof's in the pudding: "Centrist" Clinton types win, liberal McGovern/Mondale types loose. And the Dems have indeed returned to their roots as a moderately right of center conservative party that _is_ really different from the radical right Christian-Zionist fundie Republicans.

That, unfortunately, is the scope of the regime spectrum. That fact won't be wished away with dreamy infantile wish projections.

Nader showed the small size of the consciously progressive vote, no more than 4-5% of those who actually voted (so if you include all potential voters, this small percentage is about halved). Nader got about half of that. Further, this small vote is heavily overconcentrated in "progressive ghettos" like Berkeley (as in Nathan Newman)/Oakland and its mates in other US cities, rendering it of even less marginal importance.

IOW, the Dems don't need the Nader progs, or even the whole prog vote, to win, indeed, actively basing their strategy on this vote will threaten the real electoral gold mine, the mushy-brained suburban "swing" vote, could be 20-30% depending on district. Think Contra Costa County across the hills, not Berkeley, where a moderately conservative Dem took it from a far right Christian Fundie Repub some years ago. But for sure they won't vote for the antiwar Dean.

While the centrist Dem will be a lesser evil, it can at most only slow down the destructiveness (and self-destructiveness) of a US imperialism quite likely in strategic retreat, where the wounded beast can still cause much damage in its agony. The lesser evil is a good thing, but that's not progressive politics.

If the progressive Left ever gains the courage of its convictions and turns its back on the bipartisan political regime once and for all, without ever looking back, and builds an active, independent politial party of its own, year after year, election after election, it will then also have a shot of at least a minority of the 40-50% who don't vote at all. And more, since at last we will have an objective existence.

-Brad Mayer

Message: 4 Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 09:26:14 -0700 (PDT) From: mike larkin <mike_larkin2001 at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Lieberman To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org Reply-To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org

--- Doug Henwood <dhenwood at panix.com> wrote:
> Alarmingly, Gallup reports that Lieberman is leading
> the Dem field
> among almost all demographic groups - men, women,
> whites, young,
> old... Sharpton leads among blacks, but Lieberman is
> #2 (ahead of
> Moseley Braun).
>
> Further, Page Six reports today:
>
> >GO TEAM
> >
> >JOE Lieberman's new press secretary has an
> unfortunate moniker.
> >Lieberman's old flack, Dan Gerstein, has left to
> head up the
> >senator's presidential campaign, and his
> replacement is Matt Gobush.
> >"How funny is that?" laughed one politico. "The man
> who will be
> >quoted most often as Lieberman runs against
> [President] Bush has a
> >name that basically wins it for the Republicans."
> Indeed, Gobush
> >used to work for Al Gore.
>
> Doug
> ___________________________________
>
http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk

It could be just name recognition; if not, and he gets nominated, it will be another chance for Nader to throw the election to Bush.

lbo-talk-request at lbo-talk.org wrote:


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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Note on Lieven (Doug Henwood)
> 2. Re: NAMBLA child molesters put out anti-war statement (Doug Henwood)
> 3. Lieberman (Doug Henwood)
> 4. Re: Lieberman (mike larkin)
> 5. Re: Lieberman (Nathan Newman)
> 6. 7 people shot dead at Lockheed Martin (Kevin Robert Dean)
> 7. Re: Re: Note on Lieven (Ulhas Joglekar)
> 8. RE: Fwd: Savage Homophobia on MSNBC (andie nachgeborenen)
> 9. The propaganda remix project (Wojtek Sokolowski)
> 10. Re: Note on Lieven (Dwayne Monroe)
> 11. Re: Lieberman (Shane Taylor)
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:07:34 -0400
> To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> From: Doug Henwood <dhenwood at panix.com>
> Subject: [lbo-talk] Re: Note on Lieven
> Reply-To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
>
> JBrown72073 at cs.com wrote:
>
> >is chaos really a problem for them?
>
> I thought the line was that failed states are breeding grounds for
> terrorists, like stagnant pools are for mosquitos. So yes, chaos
> should be a problem for them.
>
> Doug
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:23:41 -0400
> To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> From: Doug Henwood <dhenwood at panix.com>
> Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] NAMBLA child molesters put out anti-war statement
> Reply-To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
>
> Lance Murdoch wrote:
>
> >As if yuppie limousine liberals, sexual "identity" radicals and lifestyle
> >Birkenstock wearing, patchoulli smelling hippies had not done enough to
> >try and seize the mantle of the left to drag it from it's working class
> >base, the NAMBLA child molesters have recently "come out" against the war
> >in Iraq. Wonderful. I'm sure the supreme court will be rubber stamping
> >their goings on soon amidst minor decisions upholding Taft-Hartley, axing
> >overtime pay for undocumented workers and so forth.
>
> What is the point of this hideous eruption? Do you really think that
> "yuppie limousine liberals" are responsible for capital's strength in
> the class war? And why bring up NAMBLA, except, Scalia-style, to
> discredit the queers? And where's all this working class radicalism
> the lifestylers and perverts are ruining?
>
> By the way, "it's" is a contraction for it is; "its" is the possessive.
>
> Doug
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:53:54 -0400
> To: lbo-talk <lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org>
> From: Doug Henwood <dhenwood at panix.com>
> Subject: [lbo-talk] Lieberman
> Reply-To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
>
> Alarmingly, Gallup reports that Lieberman is leading the Dem field
> among almost all demographic groups - men, women, whites, young,
> old... Sharpton leads among blacks, but Lieberman is #2 (ahead of
> Moseley Braun).
>
> Further, Page Six reports today:
>
> >GO TEAM
> >
> >JOE Lieberman's new press secretary has an unfortunate moniker.
> >Lieberman's old flack, Dan Gerstein, has left to head up the
> >senator's presidential campaign, and his replacement is Matt Gobush.
> >"How funny is that?" laughed one politico. "The man who will be
> >quoted most often as Lieberman runs against [President] Bush has a
> >name that basically wins it for the Republicans." Indeed, Gobush
> >used to work for Al Gore.
>
> Doug
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 09:26:14 -0700 (PDT)
> From: mike larkin <mike_larkin2001 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Lieberman
> To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> Reply-To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
>
> --- Doug Henwood <dhenwood at panix.com> wrote:
> > Alarmingly, Gallup reports that Lieberman is leading
> > the Dem field
> > among almost all demographic groups - men, women,
> > whites, young,
> > old... Sharpton leads among blacks, but Lieberman is
> > #2 (ahead of
> > Moseley Braun).
> >
> > Further, Page Six reports today:
> >
> > >GO TEAM
> > >
> > >JOE Lieberman's new press secretary has an
> > unfortunate moniker.
> > >Lieberman's old flack, Dan Gerstein, has left to
> > head up the
> > >senator's presidential campaign, and his
> > replacement is Matt Gobush.
> > >"How funny is that?" laughed one politico. "The man
> > who will be
> > >quoted most often as Lieberman runs against
> > [President] Bush has a
> > >name that basically wins it for the Republicans."
> > Indeed, Gobush
> > >used to work for Al Gore.
> >
> > Doug
> > ___________________________________
> >
> http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
>
> It could be just name recognition; if not, and he gets
> nominated, it will be another chance for Nader to
> throw the election to Bush.
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 5
> From: "Nathan Newman" <nathanne at nathannewman.org>
> To: <lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org>
> Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Lieberman
> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 12:35:13 -0400
> Reply-To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
>
> So what if Lieberman is ahead-- it's all mainly name recognition. He's not
> even in the top two in either Iowa or New Hampshire and is not even picking
> up much financial support relative to the other major candidates. Look at a
> poll from this time in 1991-- I doubt if Clinton was at 5% in the polls
> among Democrats.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Doug Henwood" <dhenwood at panix.com>
> To: "lbo-talk" <lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 11:53 AM
> Subject: [lbo-talk] Lieberman
>
> Alarmingly, Gallup reports that Lieberman is leading the Dem field
> among almost all demographic groups - men, women, whites, young,
> old... Sharpton leads among blacks, but Lieberman is #2 (ahead of
> Moseley Braun).
>
> Further, Page Six reports today:
>
> >GO TEAM
> >
> >JOE Lieberman's new press secretary has an unfortunate moniker.
> >Lieberman's old flack, Dan Gerstein, has left to head up the
> >senator's presidential campaign, and his replacement is Matt Gobush.
> >"How funny is that?" laughed one politico. "The man who will be
> >quoted most often as Lieberman runs against [President] Bush has a
> >name that basically wins it for the Republicans." Indeed, Gobush
> >used to work for Al Gore.
>
> Doug
> ___________________________________
> http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 6
> From: "Kevin Robert Dean" <qualiall at union.org.za>
> To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 18:39:39 +0200
> Subject: [lbo-talk] 7 people shot dead at Lockheed Martin
> Reply-To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
>
> Seven shot dead at Lockheed Martin plant: MSNBC
>
> July 08, 2003 21:45 IST
>
> Seven people were killed when an unidentified gunman opened
> fire at a Lockheed Martin plant in Meridien, Missisippi, on
> Monday morning, MSNBC said quoting Lauderdale County
> authorities.
>
> But many other reports refused to confirm the deaths
>
> "All we can say at this point is that there was a shooting
> out at Lockheed and several people were injured," Local 6
> quoted the sheriff's dispatcher as saying. "The sheriff is
> on the scene."
>
> Officials at the plant declined comment.
>
> ---
> Sent from UnionMail Service [http://mail.union.org.za]
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 7
> From: "Ulhas Joglekar" <uvj at vsnl.com>
> To: "lbo-talk" <lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org>
> Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Re: Note on Lieven
> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 21:14:50 +0530
> Reply-To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
>
> Michael Pollak wrote:
> > But in non-established states, I argue, things are different. Here,
> > theoretically (everything at this point is theoretical, since we're making
> > guess about the future of something that is historically new), random
> > violence can keep them from ever being established, just by itself. This
> > means there doesn't need to be large forces and safe harbours for
> > resistance to be prolonged and effective. And for better or for worse --
> > and I mean that ambivalence quite strongly -- it means there doesn't need
> > to be a unified resistance movement to pull it off. Several small cadres,
> > or outside funding, fed by young men willing to take part once or twice
> > out of anger or honor, could theoretically be enough to keep it going
> > forever.
>
> There is a question of having a coherent ideology which holds such
> resistance movement together and sustains its activity. Vietnamese, for
> example, had it. What will be the ideology to sustain Iraqi resistance? Is
> there such an ideology in Iraq? Islamic fundamentalism?
>
> Ulhas
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 10:06:51 -0700 (PDT)
> From: andie nachgeborenen <andie_nachgeborenen at yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: [lbo-talk] Fwd: Savage Homophobia on MSNBC
> To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> Reply-To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
>
> Is he a pervert? I am myself, of course. jks
>
> --- "Max B. Sawicky" <sawicky at bellatlantic.net> wrote:
> > Our local Clear Channel station is running ads for
> > Savage
> > where he calls the (unnamed) president of the ACLU a
> > "pervert."
> >
> > mbs
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: lbo-talk-admin at lbo-talk.org
> > [mailto:lbo-talk-admin at lbo-talk.org]On
> > Behalf Of Doug Henwood
> > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 4:35 PM
> > To: lbo-talk
> > Subject: [lbo-talk] Fwd: Savage Homophobia on MSNBC
> >
> >
> > FAIR-L
> > Fairness & Accuracy In
> > Reporting
> > Media analysis, critiques and
> > activism
> >
> > ACTION ALERT:
> > Savage Homophobia on MSNBC:
> > Michael Savage tells caller: "Get AIDS and die"
> >
> > July 7, 2003
> >
> > When radio talkshow host Michael Savage was given
> > his own show by the
> > cable TV channel MSNBC, network executives said that
> > the new show should
> > not be judged by Savage's previous hate-filled
> > remarks, but by what he
> > said on the TV show itself. A recent outburst by
> > Savage, however,
> > suggests that the host's prejudice and hatefulness
> > have not been
> > constrained by his new venue.
> >
> > The incident started when a caller to Michael
> > Savage's July 5 MSNBC show,
> > Savage Nation, apparently tried to get some kind of
> > prank on the show.
> > Savage responded with a homophobic tirade. Here's
> > the transcript from the
> > Nexis news media database:
> >
> >
> > ---
> > SAVAGE: So you're one of those sodomists. Are you a
> > sodomite?
> >
> > UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I am.
> >
> > SAVAGE: Oh, you're one of the sodomites. You should
> > only get AIDS and die,
> > you pig. How's that? Why don't you see if you can
> > sue me, you pig. You got
> > nothing better than to put me down, you piece of
> > garbage. You have got
> > nothing to do today, go eat a sausage and choke on
> > it. Get trichinosis.
> >
> > OK, do we have another nice caller here who's busy
> > because he didn't have
> > a nice night in the bathhouse who's angry at me
> > today? Get me another one,
> > put another sodomite on. No more calls out of--
> > let's go to the next
> > scene. I don't care about these bums. They mean
> > nothing to me. They're all
> > sausages. Next scene; onto the next scene on the
> > Savage Nation.
> > ---
> >
> >
> > This does not seem to be the first time Savage has
> > made such comments; the
> > San Jose Mercury News reported (2/27/99) that
> > "Savage has apologized to
> > gay activists after saying he wished they would get
> > AIDS." Such
> > homophobia has long been an integral part of
> > Savage's routine; when he
> > wanted to insult the pro-gun control Million Mom
> > March, for example, he
> > dubbed it "the Million Dyke March" (5/15/00).
> >
> > He has spoken of "the grand plan, to push
> > homosexuality to cut down on the
> > white race" (San Francisco Bay Guardian, 9/20/00).
> > In his book Savage
> > Nation, he complained that Sen. Hillary Clinton and
> > Supreme Court justices
> > Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Sandra Day O'Connor have
> > "feminized and
> > homosexualized much of America, to the point where
> > the nation has become
> > passive, receptive and masochistic."
> >
> > When critics pointed out these earlier remarks to
> > MSNBC-- a cable channel
> > co-owned by General Electric and Microsoft-- they
> > were dismissed by MSNBC
> > president Erik Sorenson, along with similar attacks
> > on women and people of
> > color. "He hasn't said anything bigoted or hateful
> > on MSNBC," Sorenson
> > told the St. Petersburg Times (3/7/03). "His main
> > thrust for us is going
> > to be national security. I'm going to watch his
> > show...and I'm going to
> > give him the benefit of the doubt."
> >
> > Asked about specific slurs made by Savage, like
> > references to "homosexual
> > perversion," Sorenson said: "Those statements as
> > quoted by GLAAD and FAIR
> > are not appropriate for MSNBC.... Those kinds of
> > statements will not be
> > permitted. And if they do happen, they won't happen
> > more than once."
> >
> > Now that Savage has denounced a caller as "one of
> > the sodomites" who
> > "should only get AIDS and die," will Sorenson admit
> > that Savage says
> > things that are bigoted on his network? Or does he
> > still describe Savage
> > as someone "brash, passionate and smart" who's
> > providing "compelling
> > opinion and analysis with an edge"?
> >
> >
> > ACTION: Please contact MSNBC to share your concerns
> > about Michael Savage's
> > bigotry:
> >
> > CONTACT:
> > Neal Shapiro, NBC News President
> > mailto:neal.shapiro at nbc.com
> >
> > Bob Wright, NBC President
> > mailto:bob.wright at nbc.com
> >
> > Erik Sorenson, MSNBC President
> > mailto:Erik.Sorenson at MSNBC.com
> >
> > MSNBC Feedback
> > mailto:feedback at msnbc.com
> >
> > As always, please remember that your comments are
> > taken more seriously if
> > you maintain a polite tone. Please cc fair at fair.org
> > with your
> > correspondence.
> >
> > ----------
> > To make a donation to FAIR:
> > http://www.fair.org/donate.html
> >
> > Please support FAIR by subscribing to our bimonthly
> > magazine, Extra!
> > For more information, go to:
> > http://www.fair.org/extra/subscribe.html
> > . Or call 1-800-847-3993.
> >
> > FAIR SHIRTS: Get your "Don't Trust the Corporate
> > Media" shirt today
> > at FAIR's online store:
> > http://www.merchantamerica.com/fair/
> >
> > FAIR produces CounterSpin, a weekly radio show heard
> > on over 130
> > stations in the U.S. and Canada. To find the
> > CounterSpin station
> > nearest you, visit
> > http://www.fair.org/counterspin/stations.html .
> >
> > FAIR's INTERNSHIP PROGRAM: FAIR accepts internship
> > applications for
> > its New York office on a rolling basis. For more
> > information, see:
> > http://www.fair.org/internships.html
> >
> > Feel free to respond to FAIR ( fair at fair.org ). We
> > can't reply to
> > everything, but we will look at each message. We
> > especially
> > appreciate documented examples of media bias or
> > censorship. And
> > please send copies of your email correspondence with
> > media outlets,
> > including any responses, to fair at fair.org .
> >
> > You can subscribe to FAIR-L at our web site:
> > http://www.fair.org .
> > Our subscriber list is kept confidential.
> > FAIR
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 13:14:53 -0400
> From: Wojtek Sokolowski <sokol at jhu.edu>
> To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> Subject: [lbo-talk] The propaganda remix project
> Reply-To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
>
> http://homepage.mac.com/leperous/PhotoAlbum1.html
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 10:29:36 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Dwayne Monroe <idoru345 at yahoo.com>
> To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> Subject: [lbo-talk] Re: Note on Lieven
> Reply-To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
>
> Ulhas wrote:
>
> What will be the ideology to sustain Iraqi resistance?
> Is there such an ideology in Iraq? Islamic
> fundamentalism?
> ***********************
>
> I think that the best way to answer this is by first
> placing yourself, as much as imagination allows, in
> the position of an Iraqi.
>
> I can easily imagine being motivated to violence if:
>
> a. Basic services necessary for modern life are
> offline or intermittant
>
> b. Confused, nervous, often angry and heavily armed
> foreign troops are patrolling the streets of my town
>
> c. I've witnessed the (possibly quite horrid) deaths
> of family or friends or neighbors or simply a person
> who was minding his/her own business and was gunned
> down.
>
> d. A foreign power, claiming to be doing things in my
> best interest, and supposedly the bunch in charge,
> shows little competence, little desire to include even
> people I respect in decision making and generally
> makes my life obviously more difficult simply by being
> in my country.
>
> This is the hard reality that can feed random
> outbursts of violence. Any number of ideologies -
> Islamic fundamentalism, Ba'athism, whatever - can
> simply provide idea wrappers and organizing principles
> for emotions which are the natural effect of the
> causes listed.
>
> It is possible for several movements to compete for
> people's loyalty - disagreeing on philosophical points
> but agreeing that the foreigners must go.
>
> Wasn't this Mao's conclusion during the latter years
> of counter-insurgency against the Japanese occupiers?
>
> DRM
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 11
> To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 13:27:04 -0500
> Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Lieberman
> From: Shane Taylor <s-t-t at juno.com>
> Reply-To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
>
> mike larkin wrote:
> > It could be just name recognition; if not, and he gets
> > nominated, it will be another chance for Nader to
> > throw the election to Bush.
>
> FWIW, Nader isn't leading the Green polls, at least here in TX. In a
> straw poll at the recent TX Greens convention, Cynthia McKinney came out
> on top with over 40%, drubbing Nader. I believe David Cobb, the state
> secretary of the party, was second. Cobb doesn't have the name
> recognition of Nader, obviously, but he's a more energetic speaker. His
> politics are very POCLAD/David Korten.
>
> Of course, since I'll be voting in the Democratic primary against
> Lieberman, state law disqualifies me from either voting in the Green
> convention or signing the petition to regain ballot access. Something
> near 50,000 valid sigs will be needed. I also heard this past weekend
> (haven't verified, though) that some states require parties to field
> presidential candidates to maintain ballot access.
>
> -- Shane
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
> Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
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>
> --__--__--
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> End of Lbo-talk Digest

-- /**********************************************************************/ Brad Mayer Technical Support Engineer, Sun One CIS Sun Microsystems, Inc. - Sun One Tools Home Office: (510) 522-1928 Direct: (650) 786-4884 Fax: Email: bradley.mayer at sun.com /***********************************************************************/



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