No, Michael, there is no Marxist version of the LTOP. If you think the contrary, cite me the texts. Marx expressly declines to confine his discussion of wealth to the sphere of human activity because he doesn't think it's relevant to to that. He does not base sommunism on an ethical claim of justice that the workers are robbed of what they rightfully own because they created it. He does of course think capitalists contribute nothing qua capitalists, but he is not interested in the notion of fairness or justice at all. "That old shit," is what he calls that sort of talk. Reread your CGP, it'll do you good. jks
--- Michael Dawson <MDawson at pdx.edu> wrote:
> You are the one who's confused. The LTOV is indeed
> tightly connected to the
> LTOP. The Marxist version of the LTOP is the key to
> socialist philosophy
> and human liberation. That perspective is not
> equivalent to the liberal
> LTOP.
>
> Meanwhile, nice try at theoretical trickery. Marx
> rejected the claim that
> labor creates all wealth because he pointed out that
> nature gives us gifts
> we didn't make and must appreciate and protect.
> Nevertheless, if you
> confine your attention to the sphere of human
> activity, it is 100 percent
> true that labor creates all wealth. What else could
> it possibly be?
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org
> [mailto:lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org]
> > On Behalf Of andie nachgeborenen
> > Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 9:55 AM
> > To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> > Subject: [lbo-talk] LTOV/LTOP (Was plagiarism
> watch)
> >
> > Don't confuse the labor theory of value with the
> labor
> > theory of property.
> >
> > The LTO_V_, used by Marx and the classical
> political
> > economists, asserts that there an abstract
> quantity
> > called value that is a feature of commodities,
> either
> > singly or aggregate (depending on your
> > interpretation)and is proposition to the amount
> > socially necessary [i.e., minimum possible]
> abstract
> > [i.e., unskilled] labor time involved in their
> > production.
> >
> >
> > This concept has no moral implications for who is
> > entitled to the products so produced. It is used
> to
> > explain things like why there are profits after
> the
> > worker has been paid for the value of his work and
> > even though commodities exchange, in the initial
> > (admittedly idealized) story in Capital at their
> > value. Moreover, Marx emphasizes that the notion
> of
> > value applies on in an economy based on
> generalized
> > commodity production. Therefore value would not
> even
> > exist in a planned economy such as he envisaged.
> >
> > The LTO_P_, advocated by Locke, Nozick, and many
> > libertarians, is an expressly moral theory that is
> > supposed to explain why people are entitled to
> > property. On this theory, property rights are
> based on
> > having produced something from something that is
> > either unowned or already owned by you, or by
> having
> > acquired it by voluntary exchange or gift from
> someone
> > with a legitimate ownership claim to it already.
> Marx
> > would regard this notion as pure 100%
> unadulterated
> > bourgeois ideology. It is totatally unrelated to
> the
> > LTO_V_.
> >
> > Many Marxists mistakenly think that the basis of
> > socialism should be that "labor creates all
> wealth"
> > and is therefore entitled to it. Marx expressly
> > rejects this idea as absurd at the start of
> Critique
> > of the Gotha Program -- for good reason.
> >
> > jks
> >
> >
> > --- Michael Dawson <MDawson at pdx.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > So you'd throw out the baby with the bathwater?
> > > Why? Of course, it's only
> > > human decency that people who can't perform
> normal
> > > labor, which is a
> > > blessing, should be given a comfortable and
> socially
> > > meaningful existence.
> > > But I never claimed the labor theory of value
> and
> > > property explains
> > > everything. It just explains the relationship
> > > between work and justice.
> > > You know, just a little, small topic like
> that...
> > >
> > > If you dump the LTOV, where's the injustice in
> > > capitalist industry? Recall
> > > that Marx claimed his discovery of the
> difference
> > > between labor and
> > > labor-power was the bedrock of Das Kapital. A
> good
> > > Marxist like you surely
> > > knows that fact.
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org
> > > [mailto:lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org]
> > > > On Behalf Of Yoshie Furuhashi
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 10:27 PM
> > > > To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org; furuhashi.1 at osu.edu
> > > > Subject: [lbo-talk] plagiarism watch
> > > >
> > > > Michael Dawson mdawson at pdx.edu, Wed Dec 22
> > > 21:28:19 PST 2004:
> > > > >What claim, then, do "ordinary" workers have
> to
> > > wages and a
> > > > >proportionate say over surpluses?
> > > >
> > > > If the labor theory of property were the basis
> of
> > > individuals' claim
> > > > to products of social labor, the disabled, the
> > > unemployed, those who
> > > > are too young or too old to work, housewives
> and
> > > househusbands, etc.
> > > > would have little to no claim to them. A
> > > socialist movement needs a
> > > > better foundation than that.
> > > > --
> > > > Yoshie
> > > >
> > > > * Critical Montages:
> > > <http://montages.blogspot.com/>
> > > > * "Proud of Britain":
> > > <http://www.proudofbritain.net/ > and
> > > > <http://www.proud-of-britain.org.uk/>
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