At 09:18 PM 2/27/2004, Carrol Cox wrote:
>Has Charles ever used racist terms to refer to himself?
I don't believe so
^^^^^ CB: Lets see, actually, I don't use the word to refer to myself or otherwise, except extremely rarely at the "spot" or like a doctor refers to the "small pox" virus. On the other hand I am not now personally offended by the word. I mean I'm a bigboy; I'm a materialialist: sticks and stones... Then, the last time someone used it to insult me (in my presence) was the fifth grade. I beat them up. Make their words hurt them, not me :>)
The issue here is that white leftists should have some awareness that they are pretty much blowing political unity with most Black people (since most Black people they are around don't know them well or know them to be presumably anti-racist), if they use it without putting somekind of marker on it that they know it’s a very special word, with a special history. Really with most Black people white people should not use it at all.
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I guess I was surprised, after everything I've written on the topic, that you'd prefer to accuse me of harboring stereotypical attitudes about "rednecks". It would have been one thing had you said, "Kell, I know that you've written about these issues and I know you don't think the things that your use of the term redneck implies, but ...."
^^^^^ CB: Yea, really for those of us who have been on this list for, what is it, five, six years, we know that Kelley has written at length on this issue.
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As Charles pointed out, the use of the racist terms to self-identify is a topic of debate among blacks. Where I lived for the past 5 years, every black person I knew called other blacks and, sometimes, themselves terms that _I_ would never say unless I was repeating what someone said, like on this list when I've reported people using the term in a derogatory fashion and my disgust that it's happening at all in 2003 let alone 1983. I'm sorry, btw, Charles if you thought that was wrong. We should have a separate conversation about that because I'm interested in learning more about how you feel about it. ^^^^^^^
CB: I don't recall that exact discussion. It doesn't sound wrong. You weren't "using" the term but reporting others' use. I don't know what other Black people on this list think.
My point again would be "marking" your usage by showing awareness of the issues we are discussing here, like saying "N-word". _Most_ Black people are just not going to know that a given white person is very anti-racist, so it will likely have adverse political unity consequences as I mention above.
On an email list like this, at this point , I kind of feel like I "know" a lot of the longtimers here, and frankly, _I_think Kelley has demonstrated to me a strong anti-racist consciousness such that I am not offended by her analytical use. But, the vast majority of Black people are just not going to know a given white person well enough, so, ... My impression is that Kelley is well aware of what I say here. She probably can cite us to at least five articles on the topic.
^^^^^^^
(NB: of course, when blacks around here use the term, they say "nig" or "nigga" which is reappropriating the term, changing it's pronunciation ever so slightly, and throwing the word back out there so it loses some of its power as a term of derision.)
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>>You might want to know, too, that in Florida people proudly call
>>themselves cracker.
>
>You might want to know that an African American roommate of mine called
>himself n-word. You must believe that it is only racist for me to say that
>word and not for him.
You just did. I don't think your use of it is racist, though just like me and everyone in this country, we're racist. Now Charles has indicated he's troubled by the use of it at all, even if it's reporting what someone else has said.
^^^^^ CB: In the sense that I say above, in general, it probably would be a good idea to mark usage by , say, using "n-word" , if you care what most Black people are going to think of you ( or think of white people in general), because most Black people are just not going to know of a given leftist's dedication to anti-racism.
Think about if some Black person just takes a first look at this list or its
archives. They are likely to say "racist , fuckin',left honkies !" ( sorry
:>) )
^^^^^^^
More wisdom from Angela, whom I wholeheartedly agree with:
those who are often most keen to dispense their judgements on others are absolutely unwilling to countenance such implications in regard to themselves, thus flying in the face of what they simultaneously assert about the ubiquity of racism and sexism. and it's this initial judgement that i would say yes, is indeed about enjoyment: that is, the enjoyment of distinction, superiority, the fantasy of being outside fantasy... a fantasy held onto at all cost, including a refusal to deal at all with what they claim they are most concerned with: racism, sexism, etc.
i happen to think there is always space for that discussion and debate, and i would much prefer it if it was banalised by a recognition that racism and sexism permeates what we do here than to shift it into the realm of rhetorical insult (as if it is some kind of wilful malevolence), which is largely and unfortunately where it remains now. and, it's as insult that it becomes enjoyment and the basis for identification, both for those who do the calling and those who are called. that is, there should always be a debate and discussion on whether or not some comment or perspective is racist. what happens more often than not however is that discussion is halted, usually at the line of 'if a woman says x is sexist then it is true'; this is all too troubling so we should stop now; 'you are being racist when you say x'; 'you are/you aren't'; etc...
Kelley
^^^^^^^
CB: Ange ( though I miss her !) and I probably debated this somewhere in the archives, but I'd say this formulation is a bit abstract - abstract from the issues of usage in the "real" world.
I'm repeating myself , but there really is not much value I see in white leftists arguing for the right to freely use the "n-word". Why not just use extra caution and say "n-word" ? If it is being used for analysis, nothing is lost in using "n-word" instead of the actual word.
I think any white person who who thinks their anti-racist consciousness and activities somehow is broadcast to most Black people they encounter such that that white person gets a special "pass" to use the word is naïve about the dynamics of racism.