----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Henwood" <dhenwood at panix.com> To: <lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org> Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 9:29 AM Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] words for the black community
: snit snat wrote:
:
: >At 04:44 AM 7/3/2004, R wrote:
: >
: >>let me make it as simple for your enuied self as i can: if it isn't
what
: >>you call "capitalism" it would be something else. just like every other
: >>black -- as cosby pointed out -- in this racist society you're simply
going
: >>to have to suck it up and work harder.
: >>
: >>i get the impression you don't like cosby because he's talking about
you.
: >>you'd much rather argue against whites you believe you can con than
blacks
: >>who call your bluff because they know your blow is a dead end.
: >
: >Charles: the answer is a resounding, "NO!"
: >
: >I've never thought it wise to tell someone they ought to apologize
: >to someone else on list. I think it's a worthless exercise. But,
: >given that this diatribe strikes me as one long personal attack I'll
: >make an exception.
hi y'all:
allow me to reinsert the remainer of kelley's posting because i'm going to respond to dwayne's two white apologists at the same time:
K: This is nothing but a nasty attack on someone you know K:ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about. Dwaye, in fact, appears to have achieved a great K:deal in his life and who may well do far more than you'll ever know to help K:"his own" and has certainly, how can anyone imagine he hasn't, had to K:endure racist crap all his life.
K:I suggest suggest that you find the nuggets of real criticism in your
K:post--if you can--and apologize for the personal attacks that litter this
K:post like the trash white people throw in poor neighborhoods when they're
K:too cheap to pay for disposal at a wasteyard.
:
D: I second that. How obnoxious, R.
:
: Doug
i hate to disappoint but i believe what i said hits dwayne's nail on the head.
i believe dwayne is enjoying this minor brouhaha between the three of us because he appears to delight in trying to get to me. he didn't. but i enjoyed trying to make him feel good about his intended purpose. i wrote a note to him -- and only to him -- in which i believed i responded appropriately to what i perceived as his intended purpose. and, apparently, you two -- kelley and doug -- have responded beyond dwayne's wildest dreams. although possibly not his wildest, because i expect he knows you two -- and your biases -- better than i. for his neoIago performance, let's give dwayne a round of applause.
you've taken my concluding remarks, for which i laid a foundation in my posting, and responded to them without reponding to any of the content of my posting. all either of you has done is characherize my entier posting with a scurrilous diatribe which is kelly's specialty. i'll let dwayne find the "nuggets of real criticism" which abound in my posting" for himself. what kelley refers to as the "personal attack" follow logically from the nuggets and are based on dwayne's statements.
do either of you have any problems understanding exactly what i meant by the first paragraph kelley quoted above? do you, doug? do you know i ran it by at least three black friends before i posted it and they agreed wholeheartedly?
my second -- and concluding -- paragraph quoted above speaks for itself. the fact you two are reponding to my message is partly what i had in mind when i wrote it. dwayne has you two doing what's called his "shit work". give me one good reason he can't answer my statement himself. beneath him? his feelings are hurt? he's too sensitive? he doesn't like me? ;-) nope: none of the above. he's got you two white folks -- remember this is a thread about racism -- doing it for him.
do you believe for one minute a black guy(s) woud let him get away with this? do you believe for one moment a black guy(s) would give dwayne any respect at all when two white folks are fronting for him? tell me about it. how long do you believe he'd last in a black ghetto with white folks doing his fighting for him? you think he doesn't know that?
[i know it's your list, doug, and you have the right to call all the shots. right to call me on anything i write. i respect that fact. and my role is to abide. but apart from that fact, give my argument some consideration as follows in context of racial matters, which ostensibly is the context of this thread.]
every time i wrote anything to dwayne that's at all critical of his, what i'd term, convuluted, didactic, confused, often self-pitying, nearly unreadable in places, postings, i always get answers from white people. never from dwayne. except for about the first time i posted a note about racism, which wasn't directed at dwayne, in which he stated my comments did not measure up to his standards.
since then, dwayne now and then alludes to me in the third person, like he and i are married, having a marital spate and speaking to one another through an intermediary. "tell your mother the toast is burned." "tell your father, i asked him to buy a new toasted last month." and etc.
i answer dwayne, as i did; i write dwayne off the message board hoping to start congenial, informal communication with him so i can understand him better and he understand me. i write him on the message board -- as this current sample illustrates. and dwayne never responds.
i've given mr dwayne every chance to eduatate me as to what kind of guy he is in every way possible. if he chooses not to, fine. of course that's his perogative. i've made every effort. but i damn well don't expect you two white folks to defend him when, like everyone on this list, he's perfectly able to respond. he's an adult and can speak for himself, even if he's a lousy writer.
what are you two, his posse? his amen corner? am i not supposed to speak to mr dwayne without permission, and then only in the most respectful tones -- picking out the "nuggets" for this renown prospector? i thought this was a message board where everyone is equal and expected to answer posting directed at them, just as you two do. did i miss something?
what is kelley talking about when she writes cryptically: "Charles: the answer is a resounding, "NO!" what's the connection between this statement and a posting about dwayne?
dwayne is very good at hiding behind the white folks when he wants to, yet portraying himself a some kind of self styled authority at being what kelley terms someone who "may well do far more than you'll [i'll] even know to help 'his own.' " why the "may" kelley? -- you really don't know do you?
i'd stake that what cosby has done to help his people is far in excess of anything dwayne or most blacks have done to help their people, for obvious reasons. cosby has abundant resources. yet, there are other blacks with abundant resources who to Nothing for the community. anyone care to contradict my statement before they call me obnoxious or demand i apologize to the invisible dwayne?
dwayne is the guy making a very blatant, viscious personal attack on cosby which i didn't believe should stand unchallenged on a message board that prides itself on being "fair and balanced." either of you two think dwayne's attack should stand? either of you believe dwayne went a bit overboard? either of you two believe dwayne should ameliorate his fatuous criticisms of cos? either of you think dwayne should aplogize to his fellow black brother?
either of you believe dwayne rant was just a bit obnoxious?
again, kelley is shoveling her white liberal plea for pity of the black race, which she lays on like a starving person lays jam over bread: "how can anyone imagine, [sic] he hasn't had to endure racist crap all his life." a classic retorical question from people who need to see themselves as being so considerate and understanding of the downtrodden -- what dwayne self-pityingly terms the "unwanteds" -- so they can feel better about themselves.
i'm sick and tired of the partonizing, condescending, crypto-racist attitude toward blacks and all other "minority" races that these words carry. i almost believed this selfish, destructive and cruel attitude toward "minority" races was extinct; but i was wrong. the white folks won't part with it. "minority" races deserve an apology for this crap.
do either of my white critics believe for one moment bill cosby wasn't just as disadvantaged as dwayne? do either of you believe cosby didn't have to deal with the "same "racialist" filters, racism and capitalism" dwayne mentions prominently in his posting that he claims all blacks deal with? if not, will you tell dwayne that please?
did either of you read the biography site about cosby that i gave in my posting. are either of you saying the same thing about cosby that the right wing is saying about moore -- that now that cosby lives in a nice home and has plenty of money he's no longer able to understand his own people and is not one of them? well, dwayne said it. doesn't that deserve an apology?
do either of you seen any connection between the nation of islam and marcus garvey and bill cosby that dwayne drew in his posting? did you like dwayne's bizarre "spartanization project" stuff?
do either of you agree with dwayne's amazingly ignorant summation of the 1960's civil rights "illusion" as dwayne mischaracterized it?
do you agree with dwayne that the black community is getting nowhere and should stop dead in its tracks until it gains an understanding of capitalisim.
you two want me to apologize to dwayne for answering his rant with what kelley calls a "diatribe"? doug, you want me to apologize for the same thing because i was "obnoxious." doug, you don't find what dwayne said about cosby was obnoxious? i do.
do either of you believe dwayne should apologize to the list for spouting such nonsense as i've highlighted above? or do you believe he should at least correct his -- to put it kindly -- rhetorical short circuits? or does dwayne deserve a break today?
OK. if dwayne is the knight in shining armor i so terrible wronged, tell me what i don't know about him that kelley alludes to a heavily qualified manner. tell me what he's given to the black community that outshines cosby, who he insults with such spite and alacrity. even he doesn't outshine cosby, if what he's done is meaningful for a guy on his level, i'll apologize. tell me what about racism he's faced that my wife -- whose been black since the day she was born (i have to put that in because you two, at least kelley, don't have open minds when you read my material about racism) -- hasn't faced -- and i'll apologize. tell me what he's faced that almost every black in the USA hasn't faced and i'll apologize. tell me what he's faced that cosby didn't face and i'll apologize. tell me what this shining paradigm of black honor and meaningfulness, dwayne, is and i'll apologize if i find he's faced anything more than every black friend or family member i've had for decades.
until then, i'll continue to observe he's a pompous, defensive blowhard, who comes across like a guy covering for low self esteem; a smart alec; a writer who can't put into words anything meaningful to his race; a guy who attacks any black, whether it be marcus garvey or bill cosby who's made a dent in race relations in the USA; a knee jerk excuse maker for why blacks are "unwanteds;" a show "marxist" who can't hold a candle to someone like angela davis, and a veritable font of alibis and excuses why the black community can't be expected to achieve on a level with whites. when i want to read about a defeatist attitude, i'll read dwayne.
what i've just written reads as being obnoxious doesn't it. at present, it's my honest opinion based on what i've read of dwayne's. i'm ready to change my opinion and retract it at a moment's notice on the basis stated above. i'm ready to apologize when corrected -- with facts about you-know-who. not with argument ad hominen directed at me when it could just as easily be directed elsewhere; sentimental, degrading stereotyped of blacks in our society; and self-righteous parodies of sincere concern.
i'm at your service and all eyes. tell me, are dwayne's feeling hurt by what i wrote? or are you two doing this for yourselves?
R
PS -- kelley, since you've offered dwayne a congratulatory "blow job" in a note on this board, i hardly expect you to be objective.