JBrown72073 at cs.com wrote:
>Joanna writes:
>
>
>>On the other hand, there's no question
>>that there's a psychopathology in the black community with respect to
>>learning/education and its value.... A kind of amplification of the more
>>general American "I'm ignorant and proud of it" that does not serve
>>anyone.
>>
>>
>
>What's your evidence of this amplification? I went to a half-white mostly
>working class high school and this was the attitude among the white kids--smart
>kids are uncool; think they're superior. I think it's connected to class
>divisions and the goodie-goodies and teacher suck-ups tending to be from families
>with more money. (The other half of the school was Latino and I can't say I
>noticed more or less studiousness there.) Once education has become an
>individualistic competition with every kid pitted against every other kid, they're
>going to react by disregarding the whole deal--a child who does well is seen as
>showing up the others. Who wants to do that? And when the goal is made
>entirely instrumental--to get a 'good job'--and those are not really available and
>everyone knows it, you've pretty much lost a lot of kids by highschool.
>
My only evidence of amplification was the "Kings of Comedy" movie that I
quoted before, where about 1/4 of the time
is devoted to routines that deride the pretension of blacks to an
education. Now, this was not a variation of Malcom X's "What do they
call a black man with a Ph.D? N-word!" It was out and out ridicule of
any black man making any claim to skill/education/professionalism.
Your description of general attitudes toward "education" sound true. The drop-out rate in Oakland is about 50% (!!!), and I'm guessing this is partly why. And yet, I have not met with this attitude in other countries. My mother's father was a baggage porter and my mother's mother learned how to read when my mother did, and yet education was worshipped in their household. Hofstader wrote a book about anti-intellectualism in America, but I read it too long ago to recall his arguments, though at the time I found them persuasive. Looking at the culture and the schools now, a lot of what you say rings true: schooling is more indoctrination and time serving than anything else. And yet, learning the multiplication tables is not indoctrination, learning to read and write is not indoctrination. And as for education being organized by means of competition amongst students, they do that in all other countries without calling forth the indifference you mention.... So, I don't know; I agree with your criticisms, but it's more than that.
I mean, especially in the last twenty years, it's so clear that the people who make it do so because of class privilege rather than merit that it totally discredits the slow slog up, the patient accumulation of skill, craft. Those people were all sold down the river a long time ago. I mean, they call it a meritocracy, but that's just a gloss. Bush is the perfect example. He got where he is because of brains? character? devotion?
>Then there's the problem that doing well in school is reduced to 'getting
>good grades to go to college,' even in a school, like the one I went to, where
>most of the kids are getting nowhere near a college. So if you know college is
>not an option--why bother? They've already sucked a lot of the fun out of
>learning anyway. A really smart friend of mine dropped out in 11th grade, took
>the GED and went to work. College was not an option for her moneywise, she
>didn't see the point of another year where she had to juggle part-time work and
>school. At the time I thought, she's smart, how come she can't get a
>scholarship? But her grades weren't that great cause she didn't think it made much
>difference, and she was right. Even a full scholarship won't bring in money to
>the family.
>
Yeah making education mean "college or nothing" is an utter disaster.
Also pedagogy in the U.S. is an utter disaster. It doesn't help
that the teaching corps is drawn from the bottom 20% of graduating
college seniors. Some teachers are absolutely fabulous, but not that many.
>
>Psychopathology? If anything I hear a lot of talk--especially in the black
>community-- about education and how it's the solution and so important, even
>though jobs for the educated are not that abundant--if every kid who was
>exhorted to achieve excellence suddenly did--as Dwayne points out--they'd have a big
>political problem on their hands.
>
Yeah, but that's a much better problem than the one we have now.
> One thing that I've heard black leaders say--and I've never
>heard white leaders say the equivalent--is that you have to get an education to be
>able to properly and effectively fight for the race (the whites could say
>fight for your class, but they don't). In other words, they're giving a
>collective, rather than an individual reason, to study and try to figure things out.
>It's also a lot more real reason, given what most kids (for example at my high
>school) see around them.
>
Absolutely. The other reason to get an education, independently of
whether it will hand you a ticket to the middle class, etc., is that you
can then teach your kids and break the cycle once and for all.
Joanna