[lbo-talk] Re: New Statesman - Saddam's very own party

[Todd Archer]

Brian said:

>Todd writes:

>>Depends what "unity" we're talking about.  Was the demo there to 
>>demonstrate against Israeli >>occupation or, was it there to demonstrate 
>>against the oppression of gays by Palestinians?

>Demos can have more than one message.

How to take this assertion.  I think there was some negative muttering 
around here about demos that listed wildly varying grievances from, say,  
Free Mumia to Save the Whales.  Hard for on-lookers to tell what a 
particular demo's about if all the signs have different messages on them.

And is it wise to have messages critical of an oppressed group?  I'd think 
twice about attending a gay rights demo with a sign saying, "Bath-house sex 
is unsafe sex; use a condom" or "Don't litter our parks with your used 
rubbers".

>>In any event, it's hard to stay "on message" in something as diverse as a 
>>demo if people decide >to >jump in with their own placards.

>That is what freedom is about, something I think leftists should encourage.

Ah.  So "freedom" is doing whatever you want, when you want.  Damn the 
consequences.  Thanks for explaining it to me.

>>How would you feel if, while demonstrating for something you believe in,
>>someone else jumps in with a sign attacking, directly or indirectly, that
>>very thing?

>Happens all the time.  Happened in the queer movement with women disrupting
>to achieve greater voice.  Same with people of color.

So what happened?

And were the white gay men who were so obviously racists and sexists slink 
away to their just desserts?

>>The Outrage group was targeting Palestine (rightly) in a supposedly
>>pro-Palestinian demo.  Not cool for fellow lefties.

>Untrue.  They were attacking homophobia which is very cool for lefties to 
>do
>(well, for some of them).

And they were doing it in a manner that I think was a mistake and could have 
been done better.

>>Yes, and it will continue to come up, given the fractured and fractious
>>nature of the "Left" in any country and given how these issues are spun in
>>the real world of deal-making and compromise, especially if there are 
>>groups
>>who don't seem to mind cutting in on other's turf or time, or who think 
>>only
>>in terms of ideological purity.

>The sad thing is that queers have to cut in to fight the homophobia that
>infects the left.  If the left were less ideological pure about excluding
>sexual issues there wouldn't be this problem.

I really don't get this assertion of yours: that the left is excluding 
sexual issues, that it's deliberately done.  That makes as much sense as 
asserting that queers are in favour of Palestinian oppression, capitalism, 
the death penalty, and a host of other issues that I would imagine don't 
regularly show up at queer resistance demos.

>>Independence and initiative aren't bad, so long as you're careful in how
>>you apply it.

>It seems that on queer issues, some leftists become the Letitia Baldridges
>of the struggle.  Suddenly, there are wheres and whens and hows of fighting
>for freedom.

"Suddenly?"  There are always wheres, whens, and hows.  If you're so much in 
favour of doing anything you please to further the cause of queer lib, go 
climb a bell tower with a rifle and start popping the breeders.  Surely, 
that's just as effective and legitimate a tactic as reading a statement at a 
demo.

>>All I'm asking for is refraining from stepping on toes as happened at that
>>demo.

>Maybe queers are tired of being polite Franklin Pangborns.  It tires fast
>when supposed leftist allies are always telling queers to hush up.

We're at an impasse.  You just want to go on willy-nilly "doing your thing". 
  Fine.  Whatever.

>>It is a political tactic.

>And it is wrong-headed and homophobic.  Just like the Bush administration
>saying that anti-Iraq war talk is unpatriotic.

Whatever.  You've got that single-issue in your head.  Any criticism of 
queer tactics = homophobia.  It feels so freeing, being outed as a queer 
hater.  Not to mention a Leninist.  Oh, yeah; I can feel that big black 
mustache growing, and the horns, the horns too are coming in . . . .

Know what?  I'll answer your question before I go out and kick some faggot 
ass, now that I'm the devil incarnate.

>>In principle, I can get behind that, but there had to have been a better
>>way of presenting a less "jarring" picture in this particular instance.

>What concrete better way do you suggest?

How about negotiation beforehand, with the parties involved?  Or using one's 
head by checking out the websites of the members of the demo and figuring 
out that there are some pretty conservative elements among them, who might 
not cotton to queers being there.  Why not call on the more progressive 
groups and ask them to help at another demo in which gay rights are 
championed  worldwide, including Palestine?

Oooh!!  I feel the urge to kill rising!  Gotta go out and kick some queer 
butt now!  I'm SOOO bad!

Todd  :{(>

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Premium: Up to 11 personalized e-mail addresses and 2 months FREE*   
http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines