At 12:36 PM 6/28/2004, R wrote:
>not at all. depends on the person. i'd just like to see "minority" races
>lead off, if they're interested in such a discussion. there's a lot to be
>said if people want to; and a lot to be learned. i'd rather not have a
>"discussion" of race all by whites, for instance. we can't have a
>meaningful discussion without open participation by all. and the
>experience and knowledge of "minority" members.
You realize that this is considered insultingly racist by some folk? no, not idiot conservatives, either.
I don't have time at the moment, but I posted two links that give you an intro as to why. It's our job as white people to talk about how racism works. It's not our job to facilitate a discussion inviting blacks to speak up. It's our job to start it and keep it going.
Black people or anyone else shouldn't be put upon to explain how it works. They don't need to tell anyone how it "feels" to be black. Just as I shouldn't be asked to explain how it feels to be a chick in a forum dominated by dicks. Taking the time, as Chuck did or Joe did, to talk about how it works because they've spent some time observing it and paying attention to it is what whites ought to do. When a man on this list--like Brad de Long once did, or Carrol has done, or Mike Yates has done, or Michael Pollak has done (I'm sorry if I missed someone... I think I have...)--to explain to other white men what sexism is about, THAT means a lot to me. It means they GET IT. It means they are willing to put their asses on the line and educate others. THEY have to take the heat for a change.
It's also about knowing when to move over and shut up and let people speak. But pointing fingers and saying "speak!" "tell us how you feel." "tell us what it's like." ...
I know you're trying to facilitate and open up a space for folk you think may not feel comfortable about talking about race. But, I dunno, I guess I would be insulted. These two men are not shy about talking about race. They don't always say it in the way you would like, I'll bet. Which I bet is pretty damn insulting. There's a WAY to be black now? Please read the link I sent.
I don't know. I'm a white woman, if men did that to me, I'd be raging pissed off. We have been talking about it for decades. And you want us to talk some more? WHAT?
I know it's not fair to make equivalences between racism and sexism so I'm just telling you how I would feel if you were to point your finger at me and say, "Speak. You never speak about feminism. Tell us what feminists care about."
WHAT? Why the HELL don't you know already? (You as in a universal or general you, not you, R)
I'd tell you to fuck off and hit the library and learn while also doing something to help feminist causes.
I know this sounds offensive. I don't mean to be. I'd encourage you to read the links I sent, trace their citations, and oh Gloria Anzaldua _Making Face, Making Soul/Haciendo Caras: Creative and Critical Perspectives by Feminists of Color_, bell hooks in general. I learned so much from those women about the fine line we must walk that means knowing when to shut up and knowing when to speak. I don't always doing it so well, but hey I'm human.
Kelley
"We're in a fucking stagmire."
--Little Carmine, 'The Sopranos'