Joanna
Michael Dawson wrote:
>You could also combine CEO chain-gangs with other forms of criminal justice
>enforcement against the firms themselves. We real individuals can go to
>jail and even get the chair. Perhaps special retributive taxes, hostile
>public takeovers, and a corporate death penalty would make a nice sentencing
>scale.
>
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org [mailto:lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org]
>>On Behalf Of Liza Featherstone
>>Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 2:28 PM
>>To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
>>Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Challenge for leftists of all stripes
>>
>>Well, certainly. But the question is which of these impossible demands
>>contains more political potential -- they are all impossible, in the world
>>as it is, but the ideas can build momentum for other reforms -- and I
>>think
>>the idea that corporations, like individuals, should be forced to take
>>responsibility for their actions has more resonance and potential than the
>>idea that it's so horrible that corporations have the same rights as
>>people.
>>I think most Americans like rights and responsibilities and think there
>>should be more, not less, of both. Also, I don't, on a purely visceral
>>level, care whether corporations have free speech or not, but I want to
>>see
>>CEOs break rocks when they break laws and I imagine I'm not the only
>>person
>>who feels this way.
>>
>>Liza
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>From: joanna bujes <jbujes at covad.net>
>>>Reply-To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
>>>Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:41:58 -0800
>>>To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
>>>Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Challenge for leftists of all stripes
>>>
>>>Problem is, they are committing these crimes in pursuit of their prime
>>>directive which is "maximize profits." This prime directive is
>>>equivalent to their "right to life." If they were computers, I guess you
>>>could get them to self destruct by pondering the paradox that they must
>>>destroy those they formally serve. But they're not computers. They're
>>>instruments of class domination, and this they do very well under the
>>>aegis of personhood.
>>>
>>>Joanna
>>>
>>>Liza Featherstone wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>One thing I always wonder about the corporate personhood, is, wouldn't
>>>>
>>>>
>>it be
>>
>>
>>>>better to expand it in a totally literal-minded way. (I know, you would
>>>>
>>>>
>>have
>>
>>
>>>>to abolish limited liability - I don't know how to do that, of course.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>Say,
>>
>>
>>>>if they are going to be considered people and have the rights people
>>>>
>>>>
>>have,
>>
>>
>>>>they should have the responsibilities people have. Thus, say, OK
>>>>corporations are people, so, when they commit crimes, the board, CEO
>>>>
>>>>
>>and all
>>
>>
>>>>of upper management have to do jail time. They cause someone's death,
>>>>
>>>>
>>they
>>
>>
>>>>get life sentences. Three strikes in California, we throw away the key.
>>>>
>>>>
>>Etc.
>>
>>
>>>>You could then criminalize environmental and labor law violations, and
>>>>
>>>>
>>all
>>
>>
>>>>sorts of other potentially great stuff. I think most people would
>>>>
>>>>
>>rather see
>>
>>
>>>>corporations gain responsibilities -- and miscreants wear leg irons --
>>>>
>>>>
>>than
>>
>>
>>>>lose rights.
>>>>
>>>>Liza
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>From: "Nathan Newman" <nathanne at nathannewman.org>
>>>>>Reply-To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
>>>>>Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:00:12 -0500
>>>>>To: <lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org>
>>>>>Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Challenge for leftists of all stripes
>>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>From: "Doug Henwood" <dhenwood at panix.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>John Thornton wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>All persons are guaranteed "free speech". Corporations can donate
>>>>>>money to political parties or individuals as a guaranteed form of
>>>>>>free speech.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>-I think this line of complaint is more petit bourgeois than
>>>>>-proletarian. It seems founded on an often undisclosed nostalgia for
>>>>>-the 19th century world of proprietorships or small partnerships. And
>>>>>-what a wonderful time that was!
>>>>>
>>>>>No, the complaints about legal personhood for corporations have to do
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>with
>>
>>
>>>>>the history of courts in the US using that "personhood" to endow them
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>with
>>
>>
>>>>>a range of constitutional rights that legislatures could not regulate.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>For
>>
>>
>>>>>decades, those rights included a range of economic contracting rights
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>that
>>
>>
>>>>>stunted legislative regulation.
>>>>>
>>>>>More recently, "free speech" and other "associational" rights have
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>been
>>
>>
>>>>>raised to try to block a range of regulations. Let me give one
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>example.
>>
>>
>>>>>At one point, California required Pacific Gas & Electric to include a
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>flyer
>>
>>
>>>>>by a consumer group, TURN, advertising to ratepayers their ability to
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>join
>>
>>
>>>>>TURN and support a consumer advocate against higher electric rates.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>The
>>
>>
>>>>>US Supreme Court struck down this law as violating the free speech
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>rights
>>
>>
>>>>>of PG&E against having to be associated with the views of TURN.
>>>>>
>>>>>Believe me, in the legal work I do on economic regulation, corporate
>>>>>opponents cite their constiutional rights against violations of equal
>>>>>protection, free speech, due process and a range of other rights to
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>combat
>>
>>
>>>>>economic regulation. Corporate personhood is indeed one of the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>deadlier
>>
>>
>>>>>weapons against democracy in the United States. We had a period after
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>the
>>
>>
>>>>>New Deal when this was largely abandoned, but it is creeping up on us
>>>>>day-to-day and is likely to accellerate in the coming years as more
>>>>>reactionary jurists extend their control of the courts.
>>>>>
>>>>>Nathan Newman
>>>>>
>>>>>___________________________________
>>>>>http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>___________________________________
>>>>http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
>>>>
>>>>.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>___________________________________
>>>http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
>>>
>>>
>>___________________________________
>>http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
>>
>>
>
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