Argumenty i Fakty Interview: The President of Estonia Arnold Ruutel. Do We Really Celebrate Nazism?
The Estonians are expecting goodneighborly relations with Russia, even while despising May 9 and honoring Nazi collaborators
FOR DAYS President of Estonia (and former secretary of the CC of the Comparty of that republic during the USSR) Arnold Ruutel refused to come to Moscow for May 9. An AiF correspondent met with A. Ruutel in Tallinn in order to find out why May 9 is banned in Estonia. The discussion took place through a translator, but when the president became agitated we switched to Russian.
Mr. President, my first question is extremely complicated. Do you understand that your refusal to come to Moscow on May 9 along with other leaders of EU countries may have far-reaching consequences?
I have never tired and will not get tired of repeating: The Soviet people had a great share in the collapse of fascism and experienced enormous sacrifices in this war. But the gratitude to the Red Army, which had liberated the Estonians from Hitlerite occupation, was wiped out by the Soviet Union itself, which did not allow Estonia to regain its independence and threw the Estonian flag down from the Long Herman tower. After the victory over Germany we had to suffer through the loss of tens of thousands of people, camps and exile. And I do not intend to cause this wound in the hearts of Estonians, which, unfortunately, is still fresh, to bleed. It is for this reason that I made the decision to stay in Estonia, with my people, on May 9.
Nevertheless, after the demonstrative refusal of the Estonian parliament to declare May 9 a holiday, the opinion is being expressed that it is clear that Estonia considers itself to be on the losing side of the war along with Nazi Germany.
It overwhelms me that opinions like this can appear. Estonia suffered from the Nazi occupation, and many Estonians perished in fighting against German forces. It is simply unpleasant to hear such unjust things.
However this opinion is encouraged by the fact that recently in your country, for the third time, erecting a monument to the legionnaires of the 20th SS division was attempted...
Before anything else, I want to point out that no such division existed.
It existed, unfortunately...
Excuse me, but I do mot command precise information on each division or other unit of the SS, where they fought or how they were formed. However in any case Estonians were mobilized into these units against their wishes, which was a violation of international law -- as inhabitants of occupied territories, they should not have been called into the army. Is another explanation really necessary?
Yes. Because the Estonian division of the SS was called “voluntary.” And I think that many inhabitants of Estonia enrolled in it in completely good faith, out of their own desires, especially because the SS were considered to be elite forces.
I cannot say that there were no volunteers at all. But on the whole, in all of Estonia people were taken into the SS by force. Moreover, they threw them against the Estonian infantry corps of the Red Army, and when brother must shoot his brother, you will agree, it is simply monstrous. People were wearing swastikas against their will.
The problem is in that today they do it now completely voluntarily. Everyone is shocked when Estonian veterans of the SS go to demonstrations in their Hitlerite uniforms -- if a person did that in Germany, he would go to jail immediately. While in Estonia he has no problems.
Of course, there are such people in Estonia. On specific historical days they gather together, and sometimes some of them put on their old military outfits. But at the same time I want to underline that during the years of occupation Estonia had an underground government, fighting against the Germans, and in September 1944 many Estonians fought with the departing forces of the Wehrmacht. And, on the other hand, if in Russia some person goes onto the street with a swastika (which happens), we do not draw the conclusion that Russia is propagandizing fascism.
The difference, perhaps, is that in Russia people would never even think of erecting a monument to people in SS uniforms. And in Estonia such an attempt was recently made for the third time -- and, if I may be so bold, I suggest it is far from being the last.
You know very well that this monument was dismantled. And that it appeared has nothing at all to do with respect for the SS. Sixty years ago it was forbidden to visit the graves of Estonians who had been mobilized by the Germans, and they were leveled by a bulldozer. We need to honor the memory of everyone who died in those hard years, but this time I agree with you: this does not mean that the symbols of the Nazi regime should be glorified. However the Russian Foreign Ministry uses this in an information war against Estonia, in order to accuse it of glorifying Nazism.
Such things are not going on?
Such things are absolutely not going on.
Then permit me to ask, Mr. President, how you relate personally to the ceremonial handover from Germany to Estonia of the remains of the last commander of the 20th Estonian division of the SS, Standartenfuehrer Alfons Rebane? He was reburied with military honors, and on his gravestone the inscription was carved: “Cavalier of the Order of the Knight’s Cross with Oak Leaves.” This was one of the highest medals of the Third Reich.
I think that, if we are talking personally about Rebane, he participated only in battles on the front had absolutely no part in killing civilians.
Alas, there is testimony that Rebane burned villages in Leningrad oblast, when he was taking part in punitive actions against partisans.
I have not seen such documents and therefore I cannot discuss this with you in such a detailed way. As I already said, I am not a historian and am not occupied with research on SS divisions.
In an interview, the head of the Simon Wiesenthal Center for searching for Nazi criminals Evrahim Zuroff maintained that he had requested a dossier from Estonia on SS officers living on its territory. He was not allowed to use it in his research -- the people indicated in the materials, after all, had not participated in the destruction of the Jews.
After the restoration of our independence Estonia carried out serious investigations into the crimes of the Nazis in these years of war. Several such legal processes are still open today, and we do not make a secret out of it. Of course, it is not possible to publish all the materials just now, but we have concealed nothing. I do not have data at my disposal that Estonians participated in shooting Jews or that this they did so at all in Estonia.
On January 20 1942 at the Wahnsee conference in Germany Estonia became the first country to be announced as "Judenfrei," that is, "free of Jews." In half a year the entire Jewish population was annihilated, including children, and Himmler remarked on the "great services of the Estonian police" in disposing of the "lower race."
I am of the opinion that we should not rely on the words of Himmler as the only reliable source. All thorough investigations that have occurred to date do not support the idea that the Estonian police consciously annihilated Jews. Without a doubt, some amount of Estonians served in the police that were created by the Germans, but I can say with complete confidence that participation of Estonians in executions of the Jewish population is excluded. We need to rely not on emotions, but on facts.
I would like to return to the question of the monument to the SS...
To be honest, I really would rather not.
I understand you.
That’s not the issue. It seems to me that our conversation is taking a strange turn. But once again I would like to emphasize that I give the Soviet victims of the Second World War their due. I would like for you and other people in Russia to understand that Estonians did not fight for the regime of the fascists out of principle; they hoped to restore the independence of Estonia. Our small country lost 200,000 people, and half of them died in Nazi and Soviet concentration camps. When people in Russia understand us, immediately the road to goodneighborly relations will be open.
Permit me one more question, Mr. President. Is it possible to justify absolutely any action if it is committed in the name of the restoration of a country’s independence, including participation in war on the side of the cannibalistic regime of Adolph Hitler?
Of course not. Therefore I and all Estonians were never and will never be on the side of fascism. We always knew very well that Hitler Germany would not restore the independence of Estonia, and therefore the Estonians did not support the Nazis in their ambitions and struggles. I want to say to you that it doesn’t help to look for things that divide us, but for those that unite us. And, in expressing respect for the victims of war, we cannot forget that the possibility to restore our state was taken away from us. The positions of Russia and Estonia need to become closer, so that we can reduce the misunderstandings between us.
These are excellent words. But your refusal to come on a day so important for Russia will make coming closer together rather difficult.
I regard things more optimistically -- Russia and Estonia have a great deal of common interests in many spheres, and I received confirmation of this on my recent visit with Vladimir Putin. It is extremely advantageous for Russia to cooperate with Estonia, because it is now possible to actively use the possibilities of our membership in the EU. It is not needed to immediately pull out your bayonets, just try to understand us.
We are trying. But it is difficult.
It is difficult for us also. But nevertheless we are trying.
GEORGII ZOTOV TALLINN-MOSCOW
Nu, zayats, pogodi!
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