>>And that's only after a couple of minutes with Google. I'm willing to
>>bet others have similar exchanges that they could provide. Chris is not
>>imagining things here.
>>
>>PC
>
>chris was specifically talking about me. Do the archives turn up evidence
>of my aggressive atheism?
>
>Also, that was Chuck0, correct? Who else belongs in this aggressive
>atheist category. Doug has supported Chuck's statements. Is it because
>Doug supports Chuck's position on religion or says things like "what's
>wrong with secularism"?
Could be, I don't know for sure. I was responding to Chris' comments about the tone discussion takes sometimes when people begin to discuss issues of faith as well as religion. I'm not even too sure what an 'aggressive atheist' is.
>I'm really tired of the complete failure to name names and show your work.
>Not you, Paul, but Chris. He's happy to name names, just won't back up the
>claim. Just claiming that "aggressive atheism" occurs on this list or that
>there are a lot of aggressive atheists on this list hasn't been
>constructive so far, so maybe you could clear things up.
Well, as said, I don't know what an 'aggressive atheist' is, let know if you are one (;->). What I see sometimes is a tone in the debate that belittles people of faith, equates anyone of any faith as being equivalent to the Christian-Nazis in the US and implies that by having any kind of religious faith you're a moron. I've seen statements here (like the 'burn the churches') that if they were directed at some other group would be viewed as unacceptable. Somehow because it's religion they're allowed, and this makes some people, like me to be honest, reluctant to respond when these things come up. I'm not cowed, I just don't want to get into an argument that would be like arguing evolution with a fundamentalist. It's pointless.
And before anyone thinks I'm playing the victim card here, sorry, no dice. I'm a white middle class male with a graduate degree, there's no way I'm a victim of anything in anyway, I'm just selective in the issues I choose to fight about, that's all.
I'm sorry I can't back all of the above up with specific examples, but I stand by them as accurate.
>Also, my partner R, always thinks it's funny that religious people, of
>nearly any stripe, will agree that some primitive religions are just
>wacky. Believing the earth is a turtle and stuff like that. Why is it
>perfectly acceptable to agree that believing the earth is a turtle is
>wacky, but not ok for Wojtek to say what he says? I'd never thought about
>it quite that way, but there ya have it. It's an interesting question.
>It's accepting the idea that, otoh, people "progress" in their belief
>structure and come to have more sophisticated view of religion and yet
>getting upset with people, like Carrol, who claim that people will
>probably move beyond religion to a point where religion isn't really
>important to anyone and people will think of it as a curious pastime.
>
>Obviously there an explanation for this distinction, but I'm not sure what
>it is. Anyone want to take a stab at it?
What troubles me are both extremes; those who say they belive it's turtles all the way down and that you better belive that as well, as well as those who say that all forms of faith are a quaint or troubling artifact of a less advanced time. Maybe it will become obsolete someday, somehow I doubt it. But I firmly believe that it can be something that helps us advance rather than hold us back.
I like some of the work that has been done that talks about what you mention, on the evolution of peoples faith, and that's the key here., However it's not as much an evolution away from faith as it is towards a mature faith based in security, reason and knowledge, not blind obedience, creed and dogma.
Chris can respond for himself, I don't presume to speak for him, but that's where I was coming from.
PC
N Paul Childs 5967-157 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta, Canada T5Y 2P3
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