To me all these different discussions relate to the need to reduce consumption. Maybe some sorting of each element is needed but I don't think so because they are so inter-related.
On Sunday 27 March 2005 02:07 am, snitsnat wrote:
>It looks to me as if he's talking about the entire working class.
What's worse, I'm talking about business, too.
>I don't know about you John, but when I was making $35k, I might
> have had "surplus" but that's only because I didn't buy health
> insurance. As the study I pointed at the other day said, living in
> a 900 sf apartment requires a wage of $15/hr. So, if Tully thinks
> the only people who are not to be excluded from those who have
> "surplus" are people who are living on min. wage, I beg to differ.
> if he does not, great. I'd like to know where the cut off is,
> though, and I'd like to know what his theoretical model is to
> determine those metrics.
This isn't something that is imposed on anyone. Its voluntary. It has to be voluntary or it can't work because it requires the desire in each of us to do what can help all of us.
>This isn't a sob story, it is tellin' it like it is. I don't think
> Tully has a clue.
>If I hadn't cut back on every little thing and shopped at the Bent
> and Dent and Walmart and only bought groceries on sale, etc etc. I
> wouldnt' have managed to save any money whatsoever and I'd be
> effectively screwed right now because the max unemployment down
> here does NOT equal $15/hr.
Renting a private apartment or home is killer. You never get it paid off and you are always dependent on fulltime work to support a roof over your head. Unless you can find some way to own a place, you are forever in a worse form of debt than home ownership is.
>I'm glad I was a tightwad the last five years and didn't spend money
> on "green" products that Tully says will cost more (Bill
> disagrees). I guess I would hope that, whatever movement Tully put
> together, he would mention when he asks for sacrifice that he is
Organic food just makes good sense. You may only bring home one bag of organic food compared to two bags of standard food, but you will be better nourished and consume fewer toxins as a result. That organic food supports a better society is a bonus.
>1. providing the social movement infrastrucutre to create a support
> system for the people who,unable to save buying the stuff he wants,
> are supported while they deal with the vagaries of the economy.
This is not gonna happen in the US. Too many oppose it. I personally think its high time that demand side economics happened and that we get a share of the pie that is now handed so readily to big business, that a guaranteed income and health care system that so many other nations provide their citizens should happen here. But I have to face the fact that the lines are becoming more solidly drawn against it with each passing day. When Clinton signed that welfare bill in 96, I knew that direction had been killed.
>2. put together an equally effective --nay, even MORE effective --
> movement to fight for the social safety net we should have. hell,
> if I had my druthers, it would be a large scale social movement to
> tear down this fucking juggernaut once and for all.
Hey, if a movement of millions to take over DC was formed, I'd be on the front lines, but most people are content and not interested in gov't takeover, and now are terrified of terrorists. There is no way we can hope for anything like this, especially as long as this terrorist fear remains. Instead we must now face the prospect that this country is going bankrupt.
>I was giggling the other day reading Tully saying that he had
> sooooooo much stuff.
Believe me, I've been long suffering the irony of it.
>HA! I've been in that boat too. You know why? Because when you;'ve
> been homeless, you can become a complte packrat.
Yep. And imagine the problem when you have 7 acres and a couple of large outbuildings. All this stuff that might be useful later never gets thrown out. I'm finding it particularly hard now when I consider how this nation's economy may fail. Alot of good material has been collected over the last 25 years.
>Now, I should probably give Tully the benefit of the doubt. And I'll
>apologize if I've misrepresented him.
Don't worry about it. I'm tough. I've survived right wing lists as a proclaimed liberal. I use asbestos underware for blankets.
>But, he didn't even hedge his
> bets to indicate that he had some semblance of knowledge of what
> life is like for a lot of people. STUFF is not what my friend M is
> swimming in. STUFF isnot what people in the old 'hood were swimming
> in. M, with here four kids, was living in a 900 sf apt with two
> other adults.
These people aren't consuming at the rate of most others. They are the third world here in the US.