I recognize you were open to a broader debate, although I did think you were missing the point when you said "Kos counsels packing up the tent and going home. That's not politics; it's burn out." Kos is anything but burned out.
And oddly I agree with you that Kos is reacting not to the potential power of marches themselves, but to how these pro forma antiwar marches play out given the almost complete lack of media strategy involved. But that returns me to my critique of ANSWER, not just because I hate their politics, but because their leadership role tends to short-circuit any real media strategy because saying-- "lookee, lookee, lots of people marching with signs." Part of my comments on Farrakahn and the Millions More March was to note an alternative approach to marches that could make them more effective and useful-- but that got reduced to people saying I liked Farrakahn's politics more than ANSWERs. Which wasn't the point-- I like his mobilization strategy more. So again, substance and strategy discussions got mixed together, as they seem to inevitably.
ANSWER exists because they walk into a vacuum of leadership by the broader antiwar leadership. As I've said repeatedly, my criticism is not really of ANSWER but of the fact that their presence, which could be discarded easily -- and was in the major NYC marches -- reflects much more systematic problems that have made the antiwar movement ineffective.
-- Nathan
----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Hirsch" <mmh at pipeline.com> To: <lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org>; <lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org> Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 6:01 PM Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Kos on Marches
Nathan wrote: >>And the question is whether people are deluding themselves about their effectiveness compared to many alternatives. He's arguing thsy "letters to the editor, contributions to anti-war candidates, politicians, and organizations, calls and letters to their elected officials, creating anti-war media (e.g. Flash animations, documentaries)" would be a better focus for all that energy. That's hardly burn out. It's a debate on tactics.<<
Nathan:
It's not a debate on tactics at all. Nowhere does he (or you) actually pose what was accomplished or could have been accomplished last weekend. Do you and he even know what outreach was attempted? Do you know who did the press work or even (god help us) if anyone did the presswork? Was there a press strategy beyond "we will march in front of the White House with Cindy Sheehan?" Because that's one of my peeves with the rally. It seemed to have no hook. If Kos actually knew something about the options the demo organizers took or did not take, then you could say certain tactics, such as mass mobilizations, are played out--at least for the duration of this war. Instead, every alternative of Kos's is so circumscribed to the narrowest and most parochial of interests--the man, the candidate, the computer, the blog--and shown through such a prism of plastic respectability that I wonder if yours isn't just an expression of agoraphobia.
And I have to say, to quote the immortal Doug Henwood: Can you fucking read? (note: accent on the fucking.) I even wrote it to your attention. Here it is, again: " Nathan. Be clear. I am NOT saying the rally and march were above criticism, or that working with the ANSWER-droids is a day at the beach, and I don't fetishize big marches. For me, the weekend in DC was deja vu all over again, and this time with my kids in tow. The best sign I saw (which was also posted or linked here on LBO-talk) was something to the effect of "I can't believe we have to do this shit again." Well, we do, because we've got the scum of the earth ruling in DC, planning imperial adventures and because we don't have a lot of options. Read him again. Kos doesn't provide those options. He just disses the organizers."
Does that sound like accusing Kos of "a betrayal that marks [him] as an enemy of the movement, a 'liberal imperialist" or whatever.' Does that sound like I was fronting for a one-shoe fits all DC march, or for any DC marches by definition? Does that sound like I'm ignoring his options, or because I think they're weak tea. Yeah, maybe you were responding to 15 guys named Moe, and not moi. Or maybe you and Kos (is that short for Kossack, btw?) are too enamored of the inside the beltway chatter. Hmmmm?
Mike Hirsch
-----Original Message----- From: Nathan Newman <nathanne at nathannewman.org> Sent: Sep 29, 2005 5:24 PM To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Kos on Marches
Actually- I was partly responding to folks saying they couldn't find the criticism of the march over at Kos, so just getting around to a new example.
The point is that big marches, aside from being morale boosters, are attempts to influence the media. And the question is whether people are deluding themselves about their effectiveness compared to many alternatives. He's arguing thsy "letters to the editor, contributions to anti-war candidates, politicians, and organizations, calls and letters to their elected officials, creating anti-war media (e.g. Flash animations, documentaries)" would be a better focus for all that energy. That's hardly burn out. It's a debate on tactics.
Which folks here seem completely resistant to.
But that's my problem with the traditional left these days. Any criticism of tactics is treated as a betrayal that marks you as an enemy of the movement, a "liberal imperialist" or whatever.
I find the some of the scorn towards Kos to be unbelievable, since he and his associates have created a media outlet that is consistently antiwar and has a daily readership higher than the the circulation of the Washington Post, the NY Daily News or the Chicago Tribune. The site generates letters to the media, phone calls to politicians and support for antiwar candidates across the country. And it provides an interactive community for progressives that involves four times as many people as participated in the march on Friday.
Lots of folks on the site disagree with Kos on this point-- as he acknowledges -- but that's one of the advantages of his site in that there is a broad inclusion of different views on how to build an effective progressive movement.
-- Nathan Newman
----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Hirsch" <mmh at pipeline.com>
Nathan:
This is why I rarely read Kos. There's an argument to be made that big demonstrations have their moment, just as any tactic can work or not work in particular contexts, including a penchant for fine-tuning the media, to which Kos seems addicted. But this piece is over-the-top dismissive of last weekend's rally without actually weighing and measuring what was accomplished, or could have been accomplished. Arundhati Roy has argued more persuasively--and with less obnoxious 'tude--that the media, focusing as it does on the counterintuitive if not the bizarre, operates on the basis of what is new or sensational. We used to call it the cult of the new. So demonstrations are by definition "old." Cindy Sheehan is "old." Even mass land seizures in Roy's native India are now "old," and can be violently repressed without so much as a shrug from the media. Roy's point is to be flexible and creative, given how hard it is to get the media to cover your actions, but not to suspend all act!
ions. Kos counsels packing up the tent and going home. That's not politics; it's burn out.
Nathan. Be clear. I am NOT saying the rally and march were above criticism, or that working with the ANSWER-droids is a day at the beach, and I don't fetishize big marches. For me, the weekend in DC was deja vu all over again, and this time with my kids in tow. The best sign I saw (which was also posted or linked here on LBO-talk) was something to the effect of "I can't believe we have to do this shit again." Well, we do, because we've got the scum of the earth ruling in DC, planning imperial adventures and because we don't have a lot of options. Read him again. Kos doesn't provide those options. He just disses the organizers.
Mike Hirsch
-----Original Message----- From: Nathan Newman <nathanne at nathannewman.org> Sent: Sep 29, 2005 4:13 PM To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org Subject: [lbo-talk] Kos on Marches
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/28/124717/957
________________________________________ `And these words shall then become Like oppression's thundered doom Ringing through each heart and brain, Heard again -- again -- again-- `Rise like Lions after slumber In unvanquishable number-- Shake your chains to earth like dew Which in sleep had fallen on you-- Ye are many -- they are few.' --------Shelley, "The Mask of Anarchy: Written on the Occasion of the Massacre at Manchester" [1819]
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________________________________________ `And these words shall then become Like oppression's thundered doom Ringing through each heart and brain, Heard again -- again -- again-- `Rise like Lions after slumber In unvanquishable number-- Shake your chains to earth like dew Which in sleep had fallen on you-- Ye are many -- they are few.' --------Shelley, "The Mask of Anarchy: Written on the Occasion of the Massacre at Manchester" [1819] ___________________________________ http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk