Where do you think justice would come from? The Minutemen? The first part of the above continues to await justification: you are yet to show how "illegals" (a sort of human being I hope) are in any way a significant cause of the problems you see for disabled people.
At around 18/4/06 1:16 pm, Marta Russell wrote:
>
> Yeah Miles what have you done lately to make sure that people on
> Medicaid get the medical care that they need? I don't see any of you
> DOING anything to fix things then you whine when a disabled person
> resents that they can no longer get the dental care they need RIGHT
> NOW not tomorrow, not some place in the future, man, RIGHT NOW.
>
Once again what does this have to do with immigrants? I need some dental work done right now too. My doctor is willing to see me in July. My insurance company says I am close to exhausting my limits for this year, so I may have to wait till next year to get some of the work done.
And while you deserve respect for the work you do for disabled rights, why assume the rest are inactive whiners? Doug and Jordan run this list and nurture a community. Chuck (who is no friend of mine) seems to be a dedicated anarchist activist. Nathan Newman works on labour issues. Michael Perelman teaches and writes excellent books that hopefully educate and convert the uninformed. From what I can tell, apart from the couple of days she seems to have spent getting married, Yoshie seems involved in some form of organizing or activism...
> I told a friend of mine about this thread exchange last night who is
> a leftie and she asked where are their brains. Can't they see what
> is happening here? They are crazy if they don't see the overcrowding
> and the numbers of illegals who rely upon social services in
> Southern CA she said.
Seeing and thinking are different activities, yes? If you and your friend stop merely at what you see, you would still believe the earth orbits the moon! I am not trying to be patronizing. You (or your friend) need to justify your conclusions: "I see Mexicans, therefore I suffer" is not enough.
>
> Arnold took away the cost of living increase of $24 from people on
> SSI in California. These are people living on about $800 a month.
> Could any of you do that? COULD ANY OF YOU DO THAT?
I think many of the "illegals" (as you call them) probably DO DO that: live on less than $800 a month. And since I have done that in the past, I could if I needed to. But this is a horrible diversion / way to pose this...
At around 18/4/06 12:31 pm, Marta Russell wrote:
>
> How would you like to retire on the Mexican retirement plan -- get
> ziltch? The problem with this list is that you are able bodied people
> who can work and haven't had the experience of being pushed out of
> the labor force permanently. You don't seem to think of anyone who
> doesn't have that ability to have an employer hire you. You are not
> looking down the road at old age or possible disablement. I
> certainly would not want to rely upon Mexican disability or
> retirement benefits. So this nation, as crappy as it is, is
> something.
>
Say a disabled person gets an opportunity to emigrate to Sweden, which (at least for this discussion let us assume) has much more comprehensive health and retirement benefits. A Swedish citizen protests that this is an unfair use of "his" system. You would stick to your principle (above) and respond that the disabled person should return?
Let us make it more "interesting": say Sweden has the cure and the coverage for treating a disabled person with a terminal problem or a chronic and highly painful condition. Further, Sweden provides this care to anyone within its boundaries. You would oppose this person's attempt to steal into that country, yes?
Now, let us say you answered 'yes' on both counts. What sort of world would you call this?
At around 17/4/06 5:33 pm, Marta Russell wrote:
>
> You would not say the same thing about black people in New Orleans
> complaining about the fact that corporations and contractors were
> hiring illegal immigrant labor to rebuild NO while they had no jobs
> would you????
>
Well, depends on what the black people are complaining about. If they are complaining that the "illegal" immigrant labourers are taking away their jobs and they have no right to it, etc, then, yes I would find the complaint ill-considered. If the black people, on the other hand, complain that corporations are short-changing both blacks and immigrants, and pitting them against one another, then I would begin to believe that a better world can perhaps be achieved one day.
Marta, the suffering you see around you and the uphill battle you wage lends righteousness to your rhetoric. But at some point you will have to eschew the rage and attempt a reasoned response that addresses the arguments (to wit: (a) immigrants do not drain the system, but in many ways support it, (b) looking at this as an immigrants vs disabled issue clouds the real causes). It would be edifying for all concerned.
Also, I noticed that you mentioned the population/overcrowding issue. I do not fall (as you seem to think) on the endless resources for an infinite population side of that debate. In fact, I have been flamed here and elsewhere for suggesting that human population levels are (or can be within a meaningfully finite duration, at current consumption rates) detrimental to ecosystems, other species, and ultimately our own future.
The possible path to a solution, in my book, to human overcrowding (and overexploitation) is: a) acknowledge the problem, b) address it in humane ways (for example by increasing education/literacy levels among women), c) attempt to bring about a more "authentic" way of living / culture. The solution is not to create enclaves and ghettos with arbitrary borders.
--ravi