[lbo-talk] On the Implausibility of the Explosives Plot

Dwayne Monroe idoru345 at yahoo.com
Wed Aug 16 11:04:02 PDT 2006


Security adept Bruce Schneier points out the following:

Based on the claims in the media, it sounds like the idea was to mix H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide, but not the low test kind you get at the pharmacy), H2SO4 (sulfuric acid, of necessity very concentrated for it to work at all), and acetone (known to people worldwide as nail polish remover), to make acetone peroxides. You first have to mix the H2O2 and H2SO4 to get a powerful oxidizer, and then you use it on acetone to get the peroxides, which are indeed explosive.

A mix of H2O2 and H2SO4, commonly called "piranha bath", is used in orgo labs around the world for cleaning the last traces out of organic material out of glassware when you need it *really* clean -- thus, many people who work around organic labs are familiar with it. When you mix it, it heats like mad, which is a common thing when you mix concentrated sulfuric acid with anything. It is very easy to end up with a spattering mess. You don't want to be around the stuff in general. Here, have a look at a typical warning list from a lab about the stuff:

http://www.mne.umd.edu/LAMP/Sop/Piranha_SOP.htm

Now you may protest "but terrorists who are willing to commit suicide aren't going to be deterred by being injured while mixing their precursor chemicals!" -- but of course, determination isn't the issue here, getting the thing done well enough to make the plane go boom is the issue. There is also the small matter of explaining to the guy next to you what you're doing, or doing it in a tiny airplane bathroom while the plane jitters about.

Now, they could of course mix up their oxidizer in advance, but then finding a container to keep the stuff in that isn't going to melt is a bit of an issue. The stuff reacts violently with *everything*. You're not going to keep piranha bath in a shampoo bottle -- not unless the shampoo bottle was engineered by James Bond's Q. Glass would be most appropriate, assuming that you could find a way to seal it that wouldn't be eaten.

[...]

full -

<http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/200608/msg00087.html>

And also, via Boing Boing...

TATP: about that pyro stuff in alleged plane-bomb plot

<snip>

So it appears the Feds were anticipating that terrorists were going to bring the raw materials for acetone peroxide (acetone, hydrogen peroxide, and a bit of hydrochloric acid {I think]) and were then going to set up a laboratory where the AP would be synthesized, precipitated from solution, collected and dried before use? what was their cover story going to be - that they were making a cup o' noodles?

There are explosive compounds that exist and are used in the liquid state - Astrolite, for example (once touted as the world most powerful non-nuclear explosive) but Astrolite needs a blasting cap to set it off - otherwise it burns like charcoal lighter. Really bad smelling charcoal lighter, yes; but it won't just go boom unless it gets a high velocity shock wave propagated through it. That's why professionals like it - it is safe to handle and predictable.

What's next? Al qaeda buying up vast quantities of tincture of iodine to make nitrogen tri-iodide? Scraping the "good stuff" off of match heads? I didn't know the Anarchist's Cookbook was available in Arabic.

I was a high school chemistry geek back when it was legal.

[...]

...

.d.

I never liked you Rusty...you were always a smart alec, a sass mouth and a bit of a giggle puss.

Dr. Impossible

...................... http://monroelab.net/blog/



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