We will make no progress here.
I refer to my reply to Justin for the rest. Israeli citizens who talk about Palestinian suppression of homosexuals in the West Bank are in the same position that we are in relation to Cuba. If they are not doing everything they can to identify themselves with the Palestinians and working everyday in solidarity with the Palestinians, and doing everything they can to stop Israeli terrorism against the Palestinians, and if then, and only then, they offer their critricism to Palestinians, and not to the imperial nation, then and only then, they might have some warrant to offer their criticism.
South African whites under the Apartheid regime who, without identifying themselves with and working in solidarity with Black South Africans on a constant and everyday basis, are in the same position that we are in relation to Cuba. If they had criticized the ANC's discrimination against homosexuals, doing so among the dominant group, while staying in their all white compounds I would say that this is mere self-satisfaction. It is just back handed help for the South African Apartheid regime no matter how anti-homosexual the South African regime also was.
Finally my, response to you in re to Reagan's use of Cuba's AIDs policy was because you said that the_ kind_ of criticism you offer was never used in the context of U.S. aggression against Cuba. Since it clearly has been (and more than once), and most likely will be in the future, you are simply factually wrong about the uses your kinds of criticism have been put by U.S. aggressors.
Unless we can find some common ground here I propose that we let our positions stand. If you can find some common ground, because I am having trouble finding it myself, then we can move on from there.
That is as good as I can do.
Jerry
On 12/27/06, BklynMagus <magcomm at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > the U.S. government, even the disgusting Ronald Reagan
> pointed to AIDS isolation wards as a violation of human rights.
>
> But we are not talking about Cuba's AIDS policies -- we are
> talking about Cuba's persecution of queers.
>
> > When is it proper for the comfortable and privileged in an
> aggressor nation to criticize the nation they are attacking?
>
> To me, it is proper to criticize those who persecute queers. The
> fact that my government, over which I have limited control,
> does not always act in the manner that I and others who agree
> with me would wish, does not negate my ability as a queer to
> criticize the oppression of my queer brethren. Were I in control
> of the government or a supporter of its persecutions, I would be
> a hypocrite. But I am not a hypocrtite since I work to change the
> policies of my government.
>
> Also, since you are so fond of hypotheticals: can a queer from a
> country that does not oppress Cuba criticize Cuba's persecution
> of queers? Isn't any and all such criticism dangerous since no
> matter where it originates, once it is out there, it can be latched
> onto by the US government as justification for its actions toward
> Cuba?
>
> Also, if I believe that sexual self-determination and freedom of bodily
> control are human rights, wouldn't I be a hypocrite if I criticized only
> some countries and not others when they violated these rights?
>
> > Practically all of what they wrote about the massacres
> committed by the West was true, which is not what can be said in
> the present case about Cuba.
>
> But it can be truthfully said that Cuba persecuted queers, and it is
> this persecution that is the focus of my criticism.
>
> > The sins of your neighbor are as much your responsibility as your
> own sins.
>
> Queer persecution is queer persecution no matter who commits it,
> whether on the left or the right. I have no idea why you want to give
> people a pass on it.
>
> > The fact is you are for some reason unable to "get" the point, as you
> say you do.
>
> I get it. I just think it is wrongheaded. By your logic, a country can persecute
> queers and be free from criticism so long as it being oppressed by some
> other nation. I do not feel that my being a United States citizen imposes a
> restriction on my ability to speak out against the persecution of queers wherever
> such persecution occurs. I also speak out against my own government and
> its persecution of queers and its other oppressions.
>
> Brian
>
>
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>
-- Jerry Monaco's Philosophy, Politics, Culture Weblog is Shandean Postscripts to Politics, Philosophy, and Culture http://monacojerry.livejournal.com/
His fiction, poetry, weblog is Hopeful Monsters: Fiction, Poetry, Memories http://www.livejournal.com/users/jerrymonaco/
Notes, Quotes, Images - From some of my reading and browsing http://www.livejournal.com/community/jerry_quotes/