You, as far as I can tell, are a reverse hack: you refuse to condemn catastrophic evils committed by targets of US imperialism because, apparently and for reasons I cannot understand for all of your explanations, you think that being a target of US imperialism deprives Americans, even if they are enemies of and activists against imperialism, from the right to say plain and obvious truths like, It's wrong to persecute people because of their sexual orientation, no matter who you are and what whoever is doing to you. Frankly, Jerry, not to put to fine a point on it, I think that your position is morally depraved.
--- Jerry Monaco <monacojerry at gmail.com> wrote:
> Brian,
>
> We will make no progress here.
>
> I refer to my reply to Justin for the rest. Israeli
> citizens who talk
> about Palestinian suppression of homosexuals in the
> West Bank are in
> the same position that we are in relation to Cuba.
> If they are not
> doing everything they can to identify themselves
> with the Palestinians
> and working everyday in solidarity with the
> Palestinians, and doing
> everything they can to stop Israeli terrorism
> against the
> Palestinians, and if then, and only then, they offer
> their critricism
> to Palestinians, and not to the imperial nation,
> then and only then,
> they might have some warrant to offer their
> criticism.
>
> South African whites under the Apartheid regime
> who, without
> identifying themselves with and working in
> solidarity with Black South
> Africans on a constant and everyday basis, are in
> the same position
> that we are in relation to Cuba. If they had
> criticized the ANC's
> discrimination against homosexuals, doing so among
> the dominant group,
> while staying in their all white compounds I would
> say that this is
> mere self-satisfaction. It is just back handed help
> for the South
> African Apartheid regime no matter how
> anti-homosexual the South
> African regime also was.
>
> Finally my, response to you in re to Reagan's use of
> Cuba's AIDs
> policy was because you said that the_ kind_ of
> criticism you offer was
> never used in the context of U.S. aggression against
> Cuba. Since it
> clearly has been (and more than once), and most
> likely will be in the
> future, you are simply factually wrong about the
> uses your kinds of
> criticism have been put by U.S. aggressors.
>
> Unless we can find some common ground here I propose
> that we let our
> positions stand. If you can find some common
> ground, because I am
> having trouble finding it myself, then we can move
> on from there.
>
> That is as good as I can do.
>
> Jerry
>
> On 12/27/06, BklynMagus <magcomm at ix.netcom.com>
> wrote:
> > > the U.S. government, even the disgusting Ronald
> Reagan
> > pointed to AIDS isolation wards as a violation of
> human rights.
> >
> > But we are not talking about Cuba's AIDS policies
> -- we are
> > talking about Cuba's persecution of queers.
> >
> > > When is it proper for the comfortable and
> privileged in an
> > aggressor nation to criticize the nation they are
> attacking?
> >
> > To me, it is proper to criticize those who
> persecute queers. The
> > fact that my government, over which I have limited
> control,
> > does not always act in the manner that I and
> others who agree
> > with me would wish, does not negate my ability as
> a queer to
> > criticize the oppression of my queer brethren.
> Were I in control
> > of the government or a supporter of its
> persecutions, I would be
> > a hypocrite. But I am not a hypocrtite since I
> work to change the
> > policies of my government.
> >
> > Also, since you are so fond of hypotheticals: can
> a queer from a
> > country that does not oppress Cuba criticize
> Cuba's persecution
> > of queers? Isn't any and all such criticism
> dangerous since no
> > matter where it originates, once it is out there,
> it can be latched
> > onto by the US government as justification for its
> actions toward
> > Cuba?
> >
> > Also, if I believe that sexual self-determination
> and freedom of bodily
> > control are human rights, wouldn't I be a
> hypocrite if I criticized only
> > some countries and not others when they violated
> these rights?
> >
> > > Practically all of what they wrote about the
> massacres
> > committed by the West was true, which is not what
> can be said in
> > the present case about Cuba.
> >
> > But it can be truthfully said that Cuba persecuted
> queers, and it is
> > this persecution that is the focus of my
> criticism.
> >
> > > The sins of your neighbor are as much your
> responsibility as your
> > own sins.
> >
> > Queer persecution is queer persecution no matter
> who commits it,
> > whether on the left or the right. I have no idea
> why you want to give
> > people a pass on it.
> >
> > > The fact is you are for some reason unable to
> "get" the point, as you
> > say you do.
> >
> > I get it. I just think it is wrongheaded. By
> your logic, a country can persecute
> > queers and be free from criticism so long as it
> being oppressed by some
> > other nation. I do not feel that my being a
> United States citizen imposes a
> > restriction on my ability to speak out against the
> persecution of queers wherever
> > such persecution occurs. I also speak out against
> my own government and
> > its persecution of queers and its other
> oppressions.
> >
> > Brian
> >
> >
> > ___________________________________
> >
>
http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
> >
>
>
> --
> Jerry Monaco's Philosophy, Politics, Culture Weblog
> is
> Shandean Postscripts to Politics, Philosophy, and
> Culture
> http://monacojerry.livejournal.com/
>
> His fiction, poetry, weblog is
> Hopeful Monsters: Fiction, Poetry, Memories
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/jerrymonaco/
>
> Notes, Quotes, Images - From some of my reading and
> browsing
> http://www.livejournal.com/community/jerry_quotes/
> ___________________________________
>
http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
>
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