Wojtek Sokolowski
[WS:] You need keep in mind that a lot of Americans also fought to abolish slavery and many died in the process, over 360 thousand to be exact. Another 250 thousand or so died to defend it, however. So where does that leave us in the moral calculus of "collective guilt?"
^^^^^ CB; I said collective responsibility. Anyway you must have missed where I mentioned the German-American '48ers were important in winning the American Revolution of 1865 and where I said
"Parts of their history that Americans can be proud of are the history of "American" Indigenous Peoples, the history of the African American People, the history of women's struggles, labor struggles, etc." All those you refer to who fought for freedom in the 1865 Revolution are part of the history of the African-American People, and can take credit.
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Likewise, does Hitler outweigh the contributions of Marx, Engels and Weydemeyer as far as the collective "moral balance" of the Germans is concerned? Are the modern Arab nations in any way responsible for the centuries of Arab slave trade in Africa? Does the nuclear attack on Hiroshima and Nagasaki "morally compensate" for the Rape on Nanking and other Japanese atrocities? Does the Holocaust absolve the Israelis of their treatment of Palestinians? Do Lenin and Trotsky absolve Russia of pogroms?
^^^^ CB: I'd say all the victims are due some kind of reparations and affirmative action repairs from the victimizers. Good works by other nationals of the same nation don't eradicate the responsibility derived from the victimizing nationals.
However, you are diverting from American history and collective responsibility. I don't have to address any of your questions to be firm on what I said about American history.
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The problem with collective guilt and claims associated with it is that it is pure metaphysics not bound by any empirical reality. Only individuals can be guilty or innocent, because only individuals meet the human agency requirement of responsibility of any kind. Without human agency, there is no responsibility, and thus no guilt or innocence. Neither natural phenomena, nor social constructs like "corporations," "nations" or "races" can be meaningfully responsible and thus guilty. Only the human agents who are members of the classes denoted by these constructs can. However, it is impossible to prove or disprove the guilt of individual members of a class that is collectively accused or blamed, beyond those who were directly involved in the deeds under investigation. And to determine the responsibility of the latter one does not need the concept of "collective guilt" at all.
^^^^^ CB: So if something is done in a group, we can irradicate individual responsibility ?
The idea of unjust enrichment of descendants unpacks this further.
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Collective guilt is nothing but guilt by association, which is the ultimate perversion of justice, demagoguery, and the foundation of the lynching mob rule.
Wojtek
^^^^^^ CB: No, there isn't just abstract "association". There is material enrichment and advantage, descendant/derivative wealth differentials, had by the "association" with U.S. genocidal usurpation and slavery.