-- Luke
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Message: 6 Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 16:24:59 -0800 From: Miles Jackson <cqmv at pdx.edu> Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Become a vegetarian or rot in hell!!! (Mea To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org Message-ID: <455123DB.50002 at pdx.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Luke Weiger wrote:
>
> Right. Unfortunately, Miles often seems to miss the distinction between
> the factual and the normative.
I think you just missed the mea culpa. Yes, I was wrong to provide logical arguments and evidence to challenge a moral belief. That was a stupid mistake. I do think the "often" is uncalled for; check the archives, but I believe this is the first thread in which I confused factual and normative claims.
Miles
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Message: 7 Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 19:57:19 -0600 From: "Robert Naiman " <naiman at justforeignpolicy.org> Subject: [lbo-talk] Post Your Anti-War Election Results Here: To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org Message-ID: <bd75d63d0611071757w6f015ab7r1433e198b86bdd33 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Post Your Anti-War Election Results Here: Show the Media and the Congressional Leadership *IT IS* a Referendum on the War
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-weisbrot-and-robert-naiman/post-your-antiwar-electi_b_33570.html
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Message: 8 Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 19:20:03 -0800 (PST) From: Wojtek Sokolowski <swsokolowski at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Re: In God's country To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org Message-ID: <20061108032003.26658.qmail at web38204.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
--- Jim Straub <rustbeltjacobin at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I wonder what Wojtek thinks of the massive upsurge
> of charismatic, or
> pentacostal (grouped in the term "renewalist")
> christianity in all the
> places mentioned. From Guatamala to Poland to Kenya
> to
> Brazil to China, renewalist christianity is the
> fastest growing mass
> religion in much of the world, to the extent that a
> recent global audit
> found it to be the faith of upwards of a billion
> people.
[WS:] Quite frankly, I do not think much of it. I am not a populist, and the fact that a billion people do or do not something, be it religious worship or a hamburger eating contest, does not impress me one way or the other. I do not find it entertaining, but I do not like country music or hip hop either.
My only concern is the material outcome of these activities, and only inasmuch as it interferes with my life style. Thus far, this interference is limited minor concerns such as trash left behind, noise, or parking space shortage created by attendees of three churches located within one block distance from where I live. This is a real problem because unlike other popular entertainment services, such as bars, amusement parks, or strip joints, churches are exempt from taxation, yet they use municipal services and resources, and thus strain city budgets and contribute to a decline of the quality of urban life.
There is also a slight possibility that this kind of religiosity creates a fertile ground for right wing mobilization. Indeed, recent Republican electoral victories were accomplished in a significant part by mobilizing evangelical x-tian networks. Again, this is of some concern because churches are exempt from taxation and are not supposed to engage in political activities - but I do not lose much sleep over it.
I would also like to reiterate the point I already made - namely that there are many different forms and faces of religiosity - even within relatively small groups. Therefore, one can always find very strange bedfellows in most churches - fascist bigot standing next to human rights activist, a sage sitting next to a philistine, and a bleeding heart worshiping the same deity as a hate monger. Therefore, the fact that you met good god fearing x-tian folk in your travels in hyper-reality (to borrow a phrase from Umberto Eco) does not necessarily mean that Hofstadter was wrong and that there is no deeply seated anti-intellectualism to which religion serves as a vehicle. I have certainly seen both.
One final comment - if a revolutionary change must be accomplished by succumbing to the popular superstition and desires to worship the supernatural - you can keep your revolution.
Wojtek
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Message: 9 Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 19:29:23 -0800 (PST) From: andie nachgeborenen <andie_nachgeborenen at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Re: In God's country To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org Message-ID: <20061108032923.91617.qmail at web50412.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Bush talk to God and God tells him things . . . . Like "Invade Iraq," "lower taxes on the rich," "Destroy the welfare state."
--- martin <mschiller at pobox.com> wrote:
> On Nov 7, 2006, at 1:34 PM, Jim Straub wrote:
>
>
> > In fact, the most dominant common denominator of
> bible-believing
> > christianity is a personal converstion experience
> of singular
> > importance in one's life
>
> That little finger slip left me wide-eyed. I've been
> posing the
> question to as many professed believers as I could
> for a long time re
> their personal epiphany, hoping to meet one who had
> a conversation.
> I've never gotten any response ! Must be a
> personality thing ! <g>
>
> Martin
>
> ___________________________________
>
http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
>
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Message: 10 Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 22:37:07 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Pollak <mpollak at panix.com> Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] GOP: beware of exit polls! To: lbo-talk <lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org> Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0611072233030.22999 at panix1.panix.com> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
On Tue, 7 Nov 2006, Doug Henwood wrote:
> <http://gop.com/News/Read.aspx?ID=6718>
>
> "[Mitofsky] Said That For Reasons That Remain Unclear, Democratic Voters
> Are More Likely Than Republicans To Agree To Interview Requests From
> Pollsters."
That has to be true -- because otherwise the 2004 elections were stolen.
But I love the way he makes it clear that that's the only reason: by giving as his only argument Reasons That Remain Unclear.
Now there is an example of faith creating reality.
Michael
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End of lbo-talk Digest, Vol 35, Issue 55 ****************************************