There is a kind of subjectivity (dare I say, a slightly pomo flavor, e.g. "you might say that the first invention was re-invention") in Michael's posting, as if all these foods are about is change (the protean bagel), and therefore we cannot invoke any standards, or make any judgments about food getting worse. Thus Lender's frozen supermarket bagels would be just another kind of bagel, with no judgment about quality being permissible.
Jesse
----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Pollak" <mpollak at panix.com> To: <lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org> Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] bagels/ethnicity
>
> On Sun, 10 Sep 2006, Bryan Atinsky wrote:
>
> > Funny thing, in Israel a bageleh is more or less a pretzel...often with
salt.
>
> I was going to bring that up. That's what's so funny about this original
> discussion being posed as if bagels and pizza were traditional things that
were
> handed down pristine and perfect and shouldn't be messed with.
>
> Bagels and pizza are two wonderful things that were invented in America at
the
> same time we were inventing Jewish-Americans and Italian-Americans. New
York
> pizza is as foreign to Italy as New York bagels are to Israel. So
modification
> of the bagel is actually a return to its original tradition, which is
> re-invention. Just like modification of the frankfurter is (of which you
can't
> get a "real" one in Frankfurt either. Although boy do they have other
stuff
> that is the wurst. And if you want a real shock of cultural transform
> recognition, go to Nuremberg and ask for a Nuremberger.)
>
> And of course the same is true of Chinese food, the other example.
Chinese
> food in New York isn't the same as in China. And it isn't the same as in
> Paris, where they serve it in courses, with wine, and with salad and
cheese
> afterwards.
>
> The fascinating thing in America is how not only the food but the mores
were
> invented. It's considered bad manners, selfishness and uninitiatedness,
to
> order one dish and keep it to yourself instead of agreeing to a share in
common
> dishes. We have to share. That's not the norm for any other kind of
> restaurant and it's not the norm for them, except for a feast. It's not
us
> imposing our model or adopting theirs. It's a new resultant of
confluence.
>
> And similarly, our use of chopsticks. Have you ever seen a Chinese person
use
> chopsticks to eat a rice dish? It's not a delicate picking instrument. We
made
> this up. Or rather we transposed it from elsewhere -- from Japanese
manners,
> which we picked up in the occupation.
>
> And most delicious of all, we use them in Thai restaurants -- where Thais
never
> would. They were a colony of the French -- they grew up using utensils.
To
> them, using chopsticks to eat Thai food is like using chopsticks to eat a
Big
> Mac. Except on noodle soups -- which is the one dish we don't use them
for.
>
> In sum, hybridity is absolutely the norm for all American ethnic food, and
all
> ethnic food anywhere else. And for that matter, for all ethnicity, which
can
> be defined as a group located away from its original location and crossing
the
> cultures of its origin and destination to create a new identity.
>
> So there is no authentic ethnic beginning. The beginning was invention.
It was
> crossing traditions to make something new that preserved something old in
a
> form that suited us better. You might thus say that even the first
invention
> was reinvention.
>
> So you can't measure anything by closeness to an origin that doesn't
exist.
> The only real measure is whether the reinvention is any way an
improvement.
> Which in the case of ethnic food, means whether it tastes better to us --
or
> at least interestingly different -- and/or whether it's more readily
> available (two qualities that are often inversely proportional, but also
> often stimulate each other).
>
> Let a thousand bagels bloom. And thank god other ethnicities are willing
to
> willing to wake up at 3am and to handroll and kettle bagels now that there
> aren't enough working class Jews to keep that invented tradition alive.
If
> they are the master bagellers now, it's their show.
>
> Michael
>
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