I would provisionally define having a first person POV as experiencing the world from a particular, though usually moving, vantage point in space and time. What some people call Geworfenheit. :) Which would be everything that experiences anything, except maybe God. But I don't think neurons "experience" anything, no matter how many of them you lump together and no matter how cleverly you connect them.
I think part of the muddle surrounding these issues may be an ambiguity in what is meant by "self-conscious." There is a difference between reacting to the world (something robots can do), being conscious, being conscious of your selfhood (Geworfenheit again), being conscious that there is stuff besides you (that is, splitting the "I" up from the other stuff), being conscious that there are other selves, and having a thematic awareness of all of the above.
--- andie nachgeborenen <andie_nachgeborenen at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Well, as Hegel emphasizes, consciousness isn't
> self-consciousness. I am not sure that just having
> experiences without any sense of self is enough for
> a
> first person POV, but if it is, certainly
> consciousness, in the sense of having experiences of
> other things, is a lot older than 30,000 years.
> Hundreds of millions of years is more like it;
> dinosaurs certainly had experiences. Did they have a
> first person pov?
>
> --- Chris Doss <lookoverhere1 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > I suspect the first-person POV goes back a lot
> > longer
> > than 30,000 years ago. As in, tens of millions.
> > Consciousness isn't the thematic knowledge that
> one
> > os
> > having experiences, or even that there is a
> > difference
> > between oneself and other stuff (a problematic
> > matter
> > for a Heideggerian in itself), but the simple fact
> > that you have experiences at all.
> >
> > Time to go to work!
> >
> > --- andie nachgeborenen
> > <andie_nachgeborenen at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Seems like it was about 30,000 years ago. That's
> > > about
> > > the date that people started to bury their dead
> > and
> > > do
> > > cave art. But what you regally want to know is
> HOW
> > > they acquired the first person POV. Hey, I
> thought
> > > you
> > > were the Heideggerian. Me, the best story I know
> > > about
> > > this, although it doesn't mention
> > neurotransmitters,
> > > is Hegel's Phenomenology of Spirit. We know
> > > ourselves
> > > through knowing others who know themselves
> through
> > > knowing us. That's a paraphrase of a famous
> > sentence
> > > in the chapter on Self-Consciousness.
> > >
> > > In some ways it doesn't matter that it's
> > > neurotransmitters that acquired them as long as
> > > whatever has them has enough complexity and
> > carrying
> > > capacity, but also sufficiently similar physical
> > > characteristics to create thre kind of social
> and
> > > psychological relations that ultimately create
> > > self-consciousness. I'm that much of a
> > functionalist
> > > (in the philosophy of mind, not the sociology
> > > sense):
> > > we could be made of something else and still
> have
> > > self-consciousness.
> > >
> > > I don't go all the way with the functionalists
> who
> > > say
> > > that it is totally irrelevant what we are made
> of.
> > > The
> > > specific physical incarnation that we have
> matters
> > > in
> > > a deep sense: we are, in virtue of the kind of
> > > biological beings we are, social, sexual,
> mortal,
> > > mutually dependent, with tendencies towards
> > > hierarchy,
> > > aggression, and both solidarity and xenophobia.
> If
> > > we
> > > were immortal (or practically so, lived
> thousands
> > of
> > > years, say), or asexual, or born with the
> physical
> > > and
> > > mental equipment in place to manage with years
> of
> > > dependence, we'd be very different kinds of
> > > critters.
> > > And the fact that we have neurotransmitters is
> > > actually probably relevant to all this.
> > >
> > > But here I go, starting to fulfill my threat to
> > not
> > > stop talking when I start on this. Bed now. This
> > > little 1st person POV needs a night's sleep.
> > >
> >
> > Lyubo, bratsy, lyubo, lyubo, bratsy, zhit!
> >
> > ËÞÁÎ, ÁÐÀÒÖÛ, ËÞÁÎ, ËÞÁÎ, ÁÐÀÒÖÛ, ÆÈÒÜ!
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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