> You must lead a life sheltered from the mainstream
if you are surprised by Charles question.
I know plenty of mainstream people who are very well- versed about bdsm.
> I believe Charles admitted he knew nothing about
BDSM so why do you expect him to know how it differs
from other forms of violence?
Because this conversation has happened on this list before and Charles feigns ignorance of bdsm every time. I do not think he doesn't about know about bdsm, but has inflexible ideas about it and tries to deflect attention from this intransience by continually asking for information.
Queer Dewd:
> I post this figuring that no one will read, but at least Bryan
will!
Damn right Queer Dewd! Us homies need to stick together. BTW, 4 out of 5 doctors surveyed say that inside every Queer Dewd is a Bitch.
> good male leftists who don't have a clue but what they suck
down via mainstream media, think that the thing to do is reject, out of hand, anything that might appear to harm women or represent some sort of 'sicko' sexuality.
And maybe hoping that their "sensitivity" would increase the likelihood of their getting laid?
> Ignore the fact that to non-BDSM people, that some BDSM
seems to simulate violent acts toward women, and therefore may
feed into the misogynist mentality of men who beat/rape women.
And your evidence that bdsm practice abets misogynist behavior? But I forget: with Charles it is prohibition first, evidence later. A side comment: I marvel at how a person who champions authoritarianism so fearlessly can have such issues with bdsm. It seems . . . perverse.
> If you are trying to convince people that there isn't misogynist mentality
or torturer's mentality in it, you need to think about the obvious, and stop
acting like it's obvious how BDSM doesn't seem like purveying violent
mentality.
I do not hate men in the least, but love to flog them. By the same token, my Domme friend adores men, but loves dominating them. Being into bdsm doesn't mean you hate anyone or yourself.
> Maybe most domestically violent men and rapists are just sadists trying
to bring out the "inner masochist" in the women they violate?
And your evidence for this assertion?
> How do you know that men who beat or rape women do not think of it as
some form of sadism in their minds?
Do you know that they do?
> Well, maybe there's another school of thought that doesn't quite agree
with your version of BDSM. They leave out the consensual part, because of their psychoanalytical theory that women actually enjoy pain, in general.
Is there any proof that supports such a theory?
> I don't lead a sheltered sex life. I don't have any sex at all. What's
wrong with that? Are you prejudiced against people who don't have sex.
No, I think those who practice celibacy need to be more open about their practice. How did you come to embrace it?
> What's your take on incest and beastiality?
This is like when opponents of same-sex marriage start asking: "What is next? People marrying their dogs." Switch topics when you cannot defend your position. I expected better of you Charles.
> By definition pain is confused with pleasure.
For some, pain and pleasure are two sides of the same coin (see Yoshie's post for the scientific evidence).
Joanna:
> The only thing I have taken issue with is the idea that fetishes
are a sign of sexual freedom; they are, to me, the very opposite.
Freedom is not scripted.
Is it possible that you are confusing a fetish with a compulsion? I do not script my bdsm practices -- one day I might flog a slave; on another coat his testicles with icy hot, wrap them in saran wrap, and lower them into an ice water bath. It all depends on the moment, just as I presume that people who engage in vanilla sex respond to the sexual moment they find themselves in.
Admittedly, there is an element of self-consciousness about bdsm at first since what a person is doing goes against the sexual script they have been taught. But with time and practice, the sense of authoring a counterscript fades and it becomes spontaneous.
Ted:
> Are you claiming there's no ethical problem with abusing others
so long as they "crave" it?
But they are not being abused. I caress men with my flogger.
Charles:
> Actually, Stalin was a sadist.
I thought you liked and defended Stalin.
Ted quoting Keynes:
> "It is better that a man should tyrannise over his bank balance than
over his fellow-citizens; and whilst the former is sometimes denounced
as being but a means to the latter, sometimes at least it is an
alternative."
I have often thought that if more people were kinky in their sex lives, there would be a lot less violence and hostility in public life. I have no evidence for this other than a gut feeling/instinct honed over decades in the bdsm community.
Andie:
> Brian once told me that there's a real sense in which a lot of Masters
are really their subordinate's subordinate, because in dominating
the subordinate they're doing what the subordinate wants.
True. You need to be so hyper-aware of your slave's abilities, limits, desires, fears, hopes that the Master is actually being controlled by the slave's capacities and capabilities. But as I added when speaking to Andie: I only learned this by practicing bdsm. I could share what I learned with him, but the certainty of the knowledge is only gained in experience.
Also props to Andie. I never have imagined that me, Mengele and Torqemada would ever -- could ever -- end up together in the same sentence.
Queer Dewd:
> this is seen as horribly unromantic and the goal of romance is to find
"the one" who just magically "knows".
This is so crucial. I have often referred to bdsm as the graduate school of sex. It requires a high degree of discipline and communication.
> Because you have reputation in that community.
I tell prospective slaves to speak to known community members to learn about my reputation.
Chuck:
> This discussion hasn't even touched on the issues of power, control,
domination, submission, play and other factors involved in BDSM/kink
roleplaying and sex.
Sing out Louise!
> As for pain, I think most of us understand that it is a powerful turn on
for many people.
"No pain, no gain." "Feel the burn."
It is when sex is involved that people get squicked.
Ravi:
> That SM causes a confusion of violence and sex?
No, it does not cause a confusion.
> So, while it is believable that some/many/all S parts of SM
relationships *think* that the M part is consenting (and wouldn't
dream of *really* hurting someone), the situation may be more
complex than that.
If a masochist tells me he consents and wants to serve and obey, what is there about such a statement for me to doubt?
The only way your sentence works is if you posit that the masochist is actually deluded, does not actually want to submit and receive pain, but says he does in ignorance of his actual desires.
Yoshie:
> "SM play can challenge structural social inequality." That's pure
wishful thinking.
I do not think so. Regular play in the dungeon can be a mind altering experience. It is liberatring in the best sense (for those people who are open to the possibilities).
Ravi:
> "Sadism" in absolute terms refers to someone whose pleasure in causing
pain does not depend on the consent of the "victim." Indeed, a lack of
consent may be a requisite part of the experience for a true sadist.
True sadist? ROTFLMAO!!!
Queer Dewd:
> Bersani persuasively argues that sex involves -- and some of us like more
than others -- instances in which our ego dissolves.
I love Queer Dewd. He is so smart.
> As such, sexuality (not just physical sex) involves the play between power
and powerlessness -- the desire for both the mastery of the ego and the
desire to experience a loss of that ego (its dissolution).
And if more people played with power in their sex lives they would not fuck up so royally dealing with power in the public sphere.
> (Note: many of my BDSM friends express what they desire as sensory
play, often in the form of a repetition and increase in intensity, a ritual
through which they explore their own body and their own response, the
sensory rhythms of whatever turns them on performing the functions of
rhythmic vanilla sex.)
A slave I know experiences/explores his body in an incredible way when I belt him from head to toe. In some ways I am jealous -- it is a sensation that is closed to me.
> bersani is arguing that the center of sexuality IS masochism where
> masochism
refers not to pain but to submission -- relinquishment of the sense of
mastery
over one's body and the world.
Exactly.
> there is a dark side to sexuality: a desire for a kind of death of the
> self.
And there are a lot of leftists who want to sex only in terms of strawberries and cream. Even in a socialist and/or anarchist utopia, people will want to flog and be flogged. It's the endorphins, stupid.
> It isn't incumbent upon marginalized to explain jack to anyone.
My husband has announced that he has officially retired from explaining being black to white people. At some point it is necessary to say that with all the information available, if someone doesn't get it, it is because she doesn't want to get it.
> it is your obligation as someone who upholds freedom and justice to
do _your_ homework about any group that has been culturally and socially
marginalized to ask yourself: since marginalization of a group is almost
always
about enforcing arbitrary norms on a group of people in the interest of
entrenched,
already existing power relations, then maybe I'm wrong and I ought to look
into it,
reading the material these folks have already produced.
But the authoritarian mindset demands that its dictates be satisfied. It can never admit that there is an obligation upon itself to educate itself. The minority must prove that a) it has been oppressed; b) did not deserve this oppression; c) does not engage in behavior that through misapprehension (intentional or accidental) could lead to bad behavior on the part of others (even though such behavior is explicitly disavowed by the minority); and d) is willing to engage in any and all efforts prescribed by this authority in the hope of one (distant) day of being granted equality and rights.
Brian