Left-Wing Puritanism Strikes Again!! (The Slandering of BDSM Practioners)
By Anthony Kennerson
^^^^ CB: I don't know whether to switch to tragedy and take you seriously or escalate the comedy. :>)/:>( I had more respect for the intelligence of BDSM fans before this thread started. Now I'm thinking, what a bunch of ___. Ah, but, ___ can be fun, and you're more fun than a barrel of monkeys, uh bonobos.
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Mr. Kennerson says: Well, Mr. Brown, in this case the insult is not only deserved, but actually understated. In my view, anyone who reduces the diverse activities of BDSM, which includes everything from female domination to consensual spanking to sensory play short of all out pain, to a "cult", and even implies that such is the equivalent to rape (if not the outright cause of rape itself), deserves nothing less.
^^^^ CB; Given your discussion here, I'm inclined to take an insult from you as a compliment.
^^^
Mr. Kennerson: Contrary to your nice Maquis de Sade fantasy of BDSM zombies living by day getting flogged in dark dungeons by dasterdly men in goth gear; most practicioners of kink actually do live normal lives outside of their sex play.
^^^^ CB: Most ? What do the minority do outside of their sex play ?
^^^
And some even happen to have leftist sensibilities, too.
^^^^^ CB: What proportion have rightist sensibilities ?
^^^^ Now, I do not deny that there aren't extreme cases that merit the stereotype, but who the hell are you to pass such a judgement on them who do no harm to others??
^^^ CB: Indeed, who the hell am I for you to care what I say, think or judge ?
On this thread, I'm the hellian who responded to the following:
. Jim Straub wrote:
> My own experience is that leftists hate on kinky BDSM sex ALL the
> time, maybe even more than honkie america. I've gotten in so many
arguments about this with radicals over the years. It's so strange. Why
do so many leftos have mean things to say about BDSM? Can someone on this
list make whatever argument there is to make, about BDSM being bad or
fundamentally oppressive or whatever? I just can't imagine what
intellectual content there could be to any such assertion.
Amen! The hostility that lefties have towards kinky sex, including many on this list, is just so disappointing. The odd thing is that people on this list will tiptoe around queer issues, but bring up BDSM or kinky sex and the inner leftist prude comes out.
Chuck
My comment was:
CB: I know I myself don't have especially strong feelings about BDSM. What I have is more a skeptical grin on my face combined with some indifference.
I get the feeling that my non-BDSM's understanding of what it is may be inaccurate. That is, the common usage of "sadist" outside of the sexual context would be somebody who enjoy's inflicting pain on someone else. _In general_, this is considered not a good mentality to have. ( I realize that Marat ( was that his name ?) de Sade http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis_de_Sade
is the source of "Sadism" , and he was involved in special sex, but still the common usage _now_ is not tied to the sexual context)
But from the defenses of BDSM on this list in particular over the years, I'm thinking that the "pain" inflicted in BDSM must be more along the lines of "pain that's close to pleasure", of paradoxical psychological legend, and even common experience, as perhaps in "tears of joy". Or something like that.
As to criticism of BDSM, I think you two ignore the fact that there is a big problem of domestic violence against women in the world, certainly in the US. A big _left_ project is to get men to stop being "sadistic" toward women. So, it might help if you explained in detail how BDSM is actually only superficially similar to or actually not at all like domestic violence against women. For you to ignore this obvious question, and act so surprised that non-BDSM people have some questions about it is kind of esoteric on your parts.
Also, I wonder whether LGBT people and liberationists in general consider BDSM as having the same status as their sexual identities. ( end of CB's first post on this thread)
^^^^^^ Mr Kennerly Gee...for someone who "doesn't give a good goddamn", Mr. Brown, you sure spread a lot of hate and presumptions.
^^^^ CB: Do you mean spread hate of BDSM ? You hate BDSM haters, don't you ? Next thing we know, you'll be spreading hate of BDSM haters. Hate will be spread everywhere, the world will be filled with hate. Oh no !
^^^^
Of course, for an ideologue spreading disinformation about a particular group that he wants to liquidate from his movement, "the burden of proof" for defending their right to exist will always fall upon them....never upon the one making the slanderous charges to begin with.
^^^^ CB: Am I in a movement with BSDMers' ? If not, where do you get this idea ? BSDM isn't a left movement.
Is the notion of "liquidate" out of your sadist persona ? I never used any such term.
Myself, I never questioned BSDMers' right to exist. I exercised my right to ask critical questions about BSDM's social impact in the midst of a big social problem of male violence against women.
Are you trying to stop me from speaking ? If so, I reject your discipline and censorship. You seem to be trying to dominate me. Is that your BDSM persona creeping out.
As to why I didn't give a good goddamn , there had been so many expressions of phony indignation and phony denials that there could be anything remotely similar between the two types of sadism that I was annoyed at the dishonesty. What a bunch of mean "aristocrats" like de Sade.
^^^^^
Mr Kennerly: Oh, and a "simularity between BDSM sex and rape"?? Gee, sorta like the "simularity" between women's orgasms (faked or real) in porn and the screams of rape victims???
^^^^^ CB;
The similarity, commonality between BDSM sex and rape is physical assault combined with sex.
What's the analogy you are trying to make ? Surely you are not claiming that I said there is the similarity that you ...I don't know what you are saying about the "similarity" you..."fantisize" about . What exactly are you saying about what you call a "similarity" ? Your discussion seems confused here.
^^^^
Other than the fact of the difference between informed consent and involuntary coerced force, I guess I really can't see why you are wrong.
^^^^ CB; You are referring to the difference between BDSM sadism and rape sadism. I'm referring to the similarity. You seem to think that because two "things" have differences that they can't also have commonalities.
^^^^
Kennerly next: Yes, BDSM is more than a bit "weird", Mr. Brown....why do you think it is called "kinky sex" in the first place??
^^^^ CB: Is it that you want most people to think BDSM is not kinky/weird, except for you and a few ? Do you or do you not want me to think BDSM is kinky/weird ? Or do you just want me to think it's weird , but not to call it weird ? but only call it kinky ?
^^^^^
And if you don't mind, please cite any example of one practioner or "advocate" of BDSM ever saying that such is a "superior" or "more advanced" form of sex than traditional "vanilla" het/gay sex....or where anyone even remotely advances the view that BDSM makes for a more "advanced" or "elite" intellectual. (Well....other than the obvious fact that accepting your own special kink allows you to be more open and accepting and empathetic about the sexuality of others.)
^^^^ CB: So, are you in the parenthesis saying that BDSM is more advanced or elitist , right here , right now ? If so I answer your question by pointing to what you write in your parenthesis.
Anyway, for another example of kinkster sexuality elitism , see post ( about 40 or so above yours on this list) from Brian Dauth under heading "Weird ideas of freedom" with a 2006 article from the Journal of Homosexuality on the subject of bdsm, Mr. Smarty Pants.
^^^^ Bottom line, Mr. Brown: BDSM sex may not be your particular cup of tea, and it certainly isn't for everyone; but to single practioners out for exclusive censure and villification because it doesn't meet your own particular "leftist" standards of sexual propriety, not to mention throw all the old libels, myths and saws about de Sade "dungeons" and mass rapes, is simply bassackwards, repulsive, and totally wrong for someone supposedly for human liberation. To see such nonsense on a leftist list tells me that the Right has no patent on sexual ignorance.
Anthony
^^^^^ CB: Actually, I didn't say anything about sexual propriety. I spoke against physical assault of women by men, whether sex is involved or not. To me, the fact that sex is involved doesn't ameliorate the physical assault.
However, as I say, why the hell do you care what I think or say ? Why does my judgment matter to you ? Why doth ye protest so much ?_to me_ ? Is it that you can't just dismiss all that I say as hate and ignorance ?
I had more respect for BDSM fans before this thread started. You are cowardly and dishonest in your denial of the similarities. Your post makes me see that the right has no patent on sadism and viciousness.
So, why the hell do I care what you think or say ? It's email and that's what we do.