[lbo-talk] Pleasure, Pain and All That Jazz

[John Thornton]

John Adams wrote:
> On Jan 10, 2007, at 3:47 PM, John Thornton wrote:
>> So what am I missing? Why is BDSM consent a thornier issue than 
>> consent for straight sex? How could it be any different? This seems 
>> like a red herring. If we're throwing out red herrings how about 
>> worrying about a link between BDSM practitioners and child abuse 
>> too?  Maybe BDSM and tax  evasion as well?
>
> Straight sex (which is an odd description for vanilla hetero and 
> vanilla homo sex, but that's how I take your meaning) doesn't 
> specifically emphasize, exaggerate, encourage, and increase power 
> differentials among those engaging in it. Neither does it place any 
> particular value on obedience. Much bdsm does. Whether you take the 
> "d" in bdsm to mean discipline or dominance, either is an activity 
> which can erode the ability of the disciplined or the dominated to 
> freely give consent. That doesn't mean it +must+ have that result, any 
> more than the power differential between a younger and an older 
> person, or a richer and a poorer person, +must+ have a nonconsensual 
> dynamic--just that it +may+ develop.
>
> Again, I'm not saying that means bdsm is bad. What I am saying is that 
> consent can be coerced.
>
> One of the attractive things in theory about bdsm is that it makes 
> power relations explicit. One of the unattractive things about it in 
> fact is the willingness of those who practice it to gloss over the 
> sometimes unpleasant realities of that power.
>
> All the best,
>
>     John A 
All sex can be coerced. Can you show me some evidence that BDSM 
practitioners are more likely than non-BDSM practitioners to engage in 
coerced sex? I don't want the definition of bandage or discipline 
spelled out, I already know them. I want evidence that B&D relationships 
involve coercion with greater frequency than other sex relationships.
The idea that it "seems obvious" doesn't cut it.
Unless you can show me BSDM practitioners are more likely to abuse their 
sex partners in a non-consensual way the "unpleasant realities" about 
these relationships seem to exist only inside the minds of uninformed 
people.
John A. and Charles want to imply a connection to BSDM practices and 
non-consensual criminal behaviour. They think we should be on the 
lookout for it but they never offer any support for this connection 
beyond "It seems obvious."
While I agree it seems obvious that many people will make this 
connection that is because the human minds attempts to forge links where 
none exist, not because of any actually existing links. I am open to 
reading any data that supports their position. Not writings about the 
possible connection but real data that supports this position. Short of 
that I will conclude seeing a danger in BDSM relationships is for some 
the same as seeing faces in clouds and for others an attempt to hide 
prudishness behind the issue of concern for others.

John Thornton