The main point of discussion is: Is it a problem to be tacked as a problem or is it to be treated as a natural endowment. For example, freek babies, or two bodies of two individuals joined together--should that be treated as a natural occurring or an aberration? If it is natural then there is no point in doing surgeries for separating the two bodies. If it is a problem, then surgeries are justified. In the natural habitat, when sexual deprivation is not enfoced upon animals, are there same sex cohabitions? When sexual deprivation is enforced upon the animals and human beings, then the result must naturally be awkward. Is it such an awkwardness manifest and carried to its final conclusion? Is it the Manifest Hell that has been enforced and prevalent in the relations between men and women for centuries so far that has ultimately gone to its monstrous proportions? The question is not what the same-sex seekers think of themselves under these World-Hell conditions, for that approach is similar to the the Brahmins thinking (a couple of centuries ago) that burning their live daughters upon the funeral pyre of their dead husbands is absolutely correct. The question is no way the ethnocentricism of the same-sex partners. Fashion is another nonsense that is connected with the affair. The fashion has driven the youths here so silly that they no more know where to tie their trousers. They all publicly display now their naked back, nearly up to their anuses. Is that as well to be passed as natural--freedom of choice. Also connected with the affair is the heroes of life and social guides. In the previous historical epochs there used to be some heroes in the vicinity of youths that would guide them---and as a result they wouldn't be driven terribly silly. Now there are no heroes in societies. As such youths are at the murcy of psychopaths all over the world. Marquis de Sade is applauded by many people; he has been applauded for a couple of centuries by many. Is that too to be passed as normal and human?
Ramesh ----- Original Message ----- From: "andie nachgeborenen" <andie_nachgeborenen at yahoo.com> To: <lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org> Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 11:47 AM Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Nepal gays and Maoists/Marxist Approach
>
> Bristle away, Miles. People didn't think of themselves
> as in "classes" or having "governments." Or, if
> Foucault is right, as individual people. Why do we
> have to take their own seld-description as the last
> word? Gay is what we call people who prefer same
> saexrelationships. Absolutely bothing wrong with
> saying Alexander the Great was gay, as long as we make
> the obvious caveats about the facts that he say thsi
> differently than we do and it played it a dfferent
> role in his societ(ies). (Which were what: Macedonian?
> Greek? Hellene? Mediterranean? Persian? Afghan --oops!
> Bactrian. Indian? Mesopotaniam? North Afriacn?
> Egyptiab? Something he created from all the above?)
> This is so obvious I can't believe I have to say it on
> a list full of Marxists who basically live by
> vcaharctertizing people in ways they would reject, not
> understand, and even find highly objectionable. Who do
> you think you are, Peter Winch?
>
> --- Miles Jackson <cqmv at pdx.edu> wrote:
>
>> Dennis Redmond wrote:
>> > Miles wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>The historical and anthopological record clearly
>> contradicts this
>> >>claim. Yes, same-sex sexual relations occur in
>> most societies, but
>> >>the linkage of that behavior to a stable,
>> exclusive sexual identity is
>> >>not a human universal.
>> >
>> >
>> > I never said sexual identity was stable or
>> exclusive, my point is that
>> > same-sex desire and practice has been around
>> forever. The literary,
>> > cultural and anthropological record is unambiguous
>> on this point. How that
>> > desire is mediated and transformed into social
>> identities is another
>> > question entirely.
>> >
>> > -- DRR
>>
>> You claimed that "lesbians and gays" have been
>> around forever. The
>> point I'm trying to emphasize is that many people in
>> many societies have
>> same-sex desire and sexual relations, and they do
>> not identify
>> themselves or others as "lesbian" or "gay". It
>> appears that we pretty
>> much agree; I just bristle when people use modern,
>> historically produced
>> categories (like those of sexual identity) and
>> project them into the
>> past to manufacture false universality.
>>
>> Miles
>> ___________________________________
>>
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>>
>
>
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