> That the masses and the capitalists each gained in their own way by the
> extension of political rights, trade union rights, civil rights, social
> insurance, and the rise in living standards - and that those calling for
> the
> revolutionary overthrow of the system lost their influence as a result -
> are
> such "obvious" and "perfectly modest" points that there are probably few
> on
> this list who really need to to reflect for very long on them.
Except that for pointing this out, and discussing certain corollaries, Yoshie has been accused of all sorts of crimes from supporting the reintroduction of segregation and anti-voting laws to resembling Louis Farrakhan.
At bottom, of course, this discussion on either side is not about
> understanding the "contradictory" effects of such reforms. It's about the
> legitimacy of calling for internal reform in Iran when it is under the
> American gun. It's reminiscent of the same debate which occured in
> relation
> to the USSR during the Cold War. Yoshie and LT think it gives aid and
> comfort to the enemy to point to the limitations on democratic rights in
> Iran.
Try not to tell me what I think. I have criticised the Iranian regime, and so has Yoshie as it happens, and I have never argued that it gives aid and comfort to the enemy to point to the limitations on democratic rights in Iran: or, more precisely, I could argue that it does, but that this wouldn't be a good enough reason not to do it. Either you are wrestling with mental shadows or you are engaging in manifest bad faith. Which seems to be the norm wherever Yoshie raises an interesting or slightly contrarian argument.
Berating "soft liberals" and others about their attitudes towards
> the Islamic Republic does little to develop defence of it against US
> aggression on this list or outside of it, and may well have the opposite
> effect. That seems to me to be the real point worth discussing.
>
No, but arguing people out of easy assumptions that have accrued as a result of centuries of colonialism and which no one is necessarily immune to, is a productive exercise, which Yoshie takes up with much gusto. May your political re-education continue under the supervision of the redoubtable editor of MRZine, and may you find yourself a more effective nemesis of the empire as a result.