[lbo-talk] Bet your life (Was Re: Michael Lerner tattles: the state ofthe antiwar movement)

andie nachgeborenen andie_nachgeborenen at yahoo.com
Tue Sep 11 23:22:10 PDT 2007



> > Under present conditions, it would easily be
> considered terrorism, the
> > immediacy of which would be up for debate. But go
> ahead, Chuck -- do it and
> > see. Seriously. Show us armchairs how it's done.
>
> What fucking planet are you living on? Do you really
> believe that if
> people did massive civil disobedience that it would
> be considered
> terrorism? What do you base this delusional
> conclusion on?

§ 802 of the PATRIOT Act amends 18 U.S.C. § 2331 by adding to its coverage “domestic terrorism” defined to mean activities that:

(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State; (B) appear to be intended- (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;

(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or

(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and

(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States. This provision is broad enough to cover robbery, kidnapping, and even minor acts of civil disobedience,

According to § 3, domestic terrorism involves acts “dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or any State” that appear to be intended “to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion,” and the acts occur “primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.” With this definition, the Patriot Act could be used to chill dissident speech by accusing environmental, anti-globalization and (one has to add) anti-abortion activists of acting as “domestic terrorists.” Acts of civil disobedience, which form a common currency among such groups, could be construed as “dangerous to human life,” against criminal laws, and intended to influence government policy “by intimidation or coercion.”

Some cites: See David Lombard Harrison, The USA PATRIOT Act: A New Way of Thinking, an Old Way of Reacting, Higher Education Responds, 5 N.C. J.L. & TECH. 177, 206 (2004) (“The PATRIOT Act has also created a new crime of ‘domestic terrorism.”’); Jules Lobel, The War on Terrorism and Civil Liberties, 63 U. PITT. L. REV. 767, 789 (2002) (”[The USA PATRIOT Act] creates a number of new, often vaguely defined crimes. One of the most dangerous to domestic dissenters is the new crime of ‘domestic terrorism.”’); Steven A. Osher, Privacy, Computers and the Patriot Act: The Fourth Amendment Isn‘t Dead, but No One Will Insure It, 54 FLA. L. REV. 521, 540 (2002) (claiming that the USA PATRIOT Act “also creates the new crime of ‘domestic terrorism”’); Phillip A. Thomas, Emergency and Anti-Terrorist Power: 9/11 USA and UK, 26 FORDHAM INT‘L L.J. 1193, 1212 (2003) (stating that under the USA PATRIOT Act “Americans engaged in civil disobedience or other forms of civil protest might be charged with ‘domestic terrorism”’); Jennifer M. Hannigan, Comment, Playing Patriot Games: National Security Challenges Civil Liberties, 41 HOUS. L. REV. 1371, 1380 (2004) (stating that the USA PATRIOT Act modifies the United States Code to create “an expansively defined federal crime of ‘domestic terrorism”’).

So, I am living on this planet, under USAPA, where "domestic terrorism" is a crime -- I could list a score of other provisions and statutes, but I want to focus.


>
> That is just about as whacky as the 9/11 conspiracy
> nutjobs. In fact,
> you sound like a 9/11 whackjob.

Unfortunately we are not talking about a hypothetical conspiracy but about the law of the United States. _And people have gone to jail for long periods for violations of this or similar laws._


>
> Jesus fucking christ, I can't believe that any
> leftist would belive this
> complete bullshit about "everything being different
> since 9/11." That is
> fucking divorced from reality.

No, companero, things _are_ different. USAPA and related governments determinations make them different. As Ann Landers use to say, wake up and smell the coffee. Do you want to bet your life that these laws and executive orders are dead letters? Because that's what you'd be doing.

USAPA allows for the imposition of the death penalty as an aggravating circumstance in the penalty phase if convicted of domestic terrorism. § 16-4-10(c).


>
> Oh, that's right, voting for Clinton/Obama will
> radically change things.
>
> Chuck

No one here thinks that. But it might help in small ways.

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