Stern's Team America
December 17th, 2008 Andy Stern was featured this week on the NPR show Talk of the Nation. After refusing to answer several questions about SEIU's connection to the "pay-to-play" corruption scandal involving Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich, he spent the rest of the show advocating his vision of a "21st-century," more "American" form of unionism that makes the labor movement a subordinate partner to Corporate America.
When confronted by an SEIU member's question about the secret backroom deals he's made with employers like Sodexho, Compass, and Aramark, Stern's defense was that "those workers are trying to find a way to have a partnership with their employer." In fact, most of those workers are completely unaware of Stern's partnership with their employer-one condition of a secret agreement that prohibits union staff from admitting to workers that the agreement exists.
In his final comments, Stern admitted that he does not believe in the power of workers' collective action-specifically the right to strike- and that instead union members should rely on the political process to get the job done.
"I don't think anymore that the power of unions comes from its ability to strike," he said. "I think it comes from its ability to participate in the political process and to change America in issues that we've been talking about, like health care."
Stern's comments echo the position put forth in his book "A Country That Works," which emphasizes the need for labor to "partner" with Corporate America and identify ways that the union can "add value" to employers. This model flies in the face of the history of organized labor and other social justice movements, where collective action has played a pivotal role in making positive change for working people in our country.
Just in the last few weeks workers at Republic Windows and Doors beat Bank of America with a sit-down strike, and over the past year healthcare workers in California have won standard setting contracts with the right to organize nonunion workers through worker-led strikes and action.
To listen to the complete interview, click here.
The transcript follows.
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CONAN: Let see if we can go now to - this is Amy. Amy with us from El Nido in California.
AMY (Caller): Yes, hi. Good morning. I'm an SEIU member, and health care worker in California. And I'm very concerned, Andy. I read in the Wall Street Journal recently about our top union officials colluding with employers like Aramark. And, you know, I was in Puerto Rico with our international convention. I know about the scandal there and now this scandal with Blagojevich. And my question is isn't it a problem when unions collude with employers instead of solely advocating for workers like me?
Mr. STERN: I think what we need to appreciate is that it's enormously important in the 21st century to try to build an America that works for everyone. And working with employers like health-care workers do in Kaiser, like out where you are in California, like health-care workers do in New York where we have huge partnerships with our employer, you know, I think we need a 21st-century version of unions where people try to work together. And I appreciate that everyone doesn't necessarily see that from the same point of view. But I think that 20th century conflictual way did not create America that works. And I'm glad you know, to imagine a 21st century way that follows Barack Obama's lead where employers and unions try to find common ground, trying to find an American way forward. And I think that is going to be the key to the excess of 21st century.
CONAN: Amy?
AMY: I completely agree, Andy, that that's the way we should work. I happened to be a Kaiser medical social worker, and I agree that we need to work with employers. My concern is when top union officials work with employers behind my back and collude with them trading our organizing rights and agreeing to such standard wages without my involvement. That's my concern. To me that is not a 20th-century - you know, 21st-century union model.
Mr. STERN: I'm not - you know, I'm not sure what you're talking about, but I think Kaiser is a perfect model and a very good example of where despite this…
AMY: I agree, but Aramark is not.
Mr. STERN: Despite a lot of criticism as you know, from many other unions about our desire to work awhile ago to get out of a situation where there were too many strikes and too many differences. We found a way to have a partnership. In Aramark and Sodexho those workers are trying to find a way to have a partnership with their employer, and we've seen many, many, many workers who never had a union, never had health care, had never gotten a raise, seeing their lives fundamentally change, and that is what this union movement about - is changing workers' lives, and that's what we intend to do.
CONAN: Amy, thanks very much for the call.
AMY: Thank you.
CONAN: Appreciate it.
AMY: Bye.
CONAN: Here's an email from Keith in San Francisco. If the government under President-elect Obama or successive Democratic president does manage to implement national health care, pension reform, living wage rules, et cetera, what role will labor unions play in the American economy down the road? Will it be worth the five percent or so in dues that many union members currently pay?
Mr. STERN: I think it's hard to imagine in the long run that we're going to have an American economy where the government controls everything. You know, I think our health-care system that we're talking about - Barack Obama is talking about - is a public-private partnership as it currently is. I think our pension system will always have a certain role for private sector as well as Social Security and other social benefits we'll have for the public sectors. So, I don't really want the government to involved in every single aspect of the employment relationship. I think there are certain things governments do, and there are certain things the market and the private sector does, and I think collective bargain is the way you begin to reconcile those difference. If you're an employer like Wal-Mart with 1.8 million workers, is a lot different than if you're working for a small nursing home with a hundred employers. And I think you know, we need non- governmental solutions which I happen to believe can come about by workers and employers working together, whether it's through collective bargaining or other forms of associations, because that's how we get things done. That's how we build teamwork in America.
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CONAN: You're basically saying single-payer would be a better system, but can't pass right now?
Mr. STERN: I would say single payer has been around a long time. It has obviously lots of advantages. It's never been tried in the United States. It's just an academic argument at this point in time that is not going to happen. Pete Stark acknowledges it, and many of the supporters in Congress acknowledge it. Let's get something done in America because people are dying every day, or suffering every day, or insecure because they don't have health care.
CONAN: Walter, thanks very much for the call. Our guest is Andy Stern of the SEIU. You're listening to Talk of the Nation from NPR News. And let's go to Dee, Dee with us from Charlotte, North Carolina.
DEE (Caller): Yes, sir. Yes. I'm enjoying the show. I just wanted to, I don't know, just looking at this historically this seems to be – and correct me if I am wrong. In America we vacillate between extremes. You know, either business is not treating labor correctly, then we have to go after them, and then as soon as labor gets some power, they start abusing their authority. Is there no systemic formula that we've come up with yet that can blend the two together so that we could move forward in a progressive manner?
Mr. STERN: Well, here is what I'd like to say – here is what I'd like to say, America has sort of grown in this, you know, conflict- resolution version of labor and management. But we're now in a global economy. America has to be a team, you know, we can't afford to be fighting with each other when people are competing against us in countries like China all over the world. In Ireland when they faced this same problem, business, labor, and government came together, and they made a plan. And they turned Ireland, whose greatest export products was its people, into the second most successful economy in Europe. I think we need that kind of plan now in America. I think business and labor and government has to come together. We can't be choosing one or the other. We need to have an American plan, and that's going to require all of us to participate and to give and take for the best interest of our country.
CONAN: Here's, in a way, a follow-up question from Ryan in Grand Rapids, Michigan by email. Since union's real power comes from their ability to strike, how is the current economy with an abundance of unemployed workers reduce your leverage?
Mr. STERN: I don't think anymore that the power of unions comes from its ability to strike. I think it comes from its ability to participate in the political process and to change America in issues that we've been talking about, like health care. I think it comes from the opportunity to build coalitions in our communities of people who believe that work should pay again in America. People of faith and community leaders and non-profit organizations to try to bring a discussion to the employers that are involved here, whether it's Kaiser that we heard about earlier and Intercon, You know, trying to put a public face and put some public pressure on companies. I think it comes from, you know, our ability at times to, you know, ask p! eople to not purchase goods that are made by people when who are involve in unfair practices or as we've seen with SEIU in Wal-Mart through our Wal-Mart watch to shine a spotlight on to unfair practices so that employer change. So, I think there's a whole array of things that unions can do besides striking, because that has to be the last resort.
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