>>> "Dwayne Monroe"
Charles wrote:
I haven't heard anybody on this list say Obama is a more genuinely progressive choice. Who is your target audience with the critique of Obama?
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Oh dear.
^^^^^ CB: What's with the "oh dear" ? "what can the matter be ? Johnny's too long at the fair" or something ? There's nothing "oh dearish" in what I said.
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Of course, I'm not talking about how things stand on the list - which is a (pleasantly) unusual space relative to the rest of the US' perceptions - but in the wider world of left and leftish politics where enthusiasm for BHO flourishes.
^^^^ CB: The radical left , anti-war activists, mortgage foreclosure activists, welfare rights activists aren't expressing much enthusiasm for O here.
But as I said before, there's nothing in supporting Obama that prevents leftists from supporting a social democrat if one comes to the fore in the future. Your "oh dearing" over leftists being led astray is unnecessary worry. The notion that some leftists out there have been led astray, or that LBO-talk has some higher discipline of left thinking than the average leftist or progressive in America is off. This whole obsession of "concern" about Obama evidences weakness in LBO leftists on the importance of race in US politics. You are underestimating the importance of so many white people ( non leftists) voting for a Black person for president. That is historically progressive. That's where the LBO analysis should focus. What's with all these white people voting for a Black person. That's potentially very radical.
^^^^^^^ Charles wrote:
Who said the energy in the Black community is for something "real"? You are not accurately representing Black people's consciousness about what their vote will lead to. Black people are not likely to be so naive as to think that the election of Obama will solve all their problems or even that he can win. I bet the greatest skepticism as to whether Obama can win is among Black people. As the joke goes these days " Why do Black people have nightmares ? 'Cause the last Negro who had a dream got shot."
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Sigh.
^^^^^ CB: "Sigh" ? "Oh dear" ? Cheer up. What I'm saying is better analysis of the situation than you can get from just about anywhere else.
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But obviously, people who're excited about BHO do, in fact expect something "positive" to happen, some "change" to occur.
^^^^^ CB: No not obviously. Black people have been disappointed many times before. That's the significance of " why do Black people have nightmares ? Because the last Negro who had a dream got shot" . Most Black people are holding their breath worried about whether he'll get killed.
The white people voting for O _is_ change in itself. By the very act of so many whites voting for a Black person they are doing something mildly radical. I was just thinking this morning that a lot of the whites voting for a Black person is are making a protest. Even if he doesn't make all the way to the nomination or president, millions of whites have done something different this time.
Your whole analysis underestimates the importance of race in US politics.
^^^^^ Why would they bother if they didn't feel this way? You say that I'm not "accurately representing Black people's consciousness about what their vote will lead to". I say that I am and that we're both right: for every strategic voter there's a person who eagerly looks forward to a new era a dawning because of their support for the candidate.
^^^ CB: Why not plunk for Obama ? As a protest, mild rebellion. You know what's a good way for a white girl to get under her father's skin ? Date a Black guy. An easy way to rebel against your parents is for a white youth to vote for Obama. And it's easy. Takes very little effort. You just put a check next to his name in a secret ballot instead of a couple of other names. And you don't have to have the expectation that he will win in the end or that it means there will be some big change.
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As you know, there isn't a single Black perspective on these things: we're both Black, we both talk to Black people. The info I'm gathering from the BHO supporters I'm meeting is not null and void because it doesn't reflect the seasoned understanding of mature Black citizens in the Detroit area.
^^^^^ CB: So are Black people telling you that if Obama wins all their troubles will be over ? Is his campaign paralyzing and fracturing the Black community in Philadelphia ?
You can look at the votes being reported around the country. O is getting big votes from Black people. He won Georgia and South Carolina based on big Black turnouts and votes. I guess NY was less so. If you want to know the impact of O on Black voting unity just read the exit poll data. I keep reading he's winning the Black vote 9-1. He's killin em like a native son.
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Charles wrote:
...this list is not a sample of the Black community , so any splintering around here is not representative of paralysis and fracturing in among Black people. And as I say it is the opposite of the truth to say that Obama's campaign is causing paralysis or fracturing among Black people.
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Yes, that's right, the list is not a sample of the Black community (I anticipated this response and failed to pre-address it). Nevertheless, I'm witnessing and participating in the same sorts of discussions re: BHO in the Black community nearest me. It is causing fractures over strategy.
^^^^^ CB: I doubt the Black community was all united in Philly before this election, and O comes in and caused a big fracture. If O had not run there would have been Black people supporting different white candidates. And I'm almost certain it hasn't paralyzed the Black community in Philly.
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Charles wrote:
My thing is you all are getting too overworked about something that ain't all that. It certainly is not doing damage to a left that is already "such as it is."
I think you all are envious because so many young people are getting caught up in Obama. It's haterism. :>)
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But of course, the VERY REASON we're getting upset is because it's something that ain't which is believed to be very real (again, not by anyone here but in the wider world of left and leftish thought and action). Of course, I'm not referring to BHO's chances to win the White House; like you, I don't think he'll get there. But BHO's positioning of Capital friendly change-ism as a new political program - and the support for that from various quarters which should know better (and once again, I'm not talking about the list or the people you're talking to) is not a good thing.
^^^^^^^ CB: I think that "left" you refer to is a straw left. If he loses, all will fade like most fads. If he wins, that _will_ be a big change. Don't underestimate that. Actually, Obama never lied when he said a vote for him would be a vote for change. All the analysis here of the difference between him and Clinton on other issues would be like "how many angels fit on the head of a needle " compared to a majority of white people voting for a Black person for president. That would be a big change.
Actually, Clinton winning would be a big change too. But she's not running as a change candidate, but as a status quo candidate, so it sort of undermines that aspect for her.
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Well, maybe you're right about haterism. I'd prefer all the love be directed towards, um,...what exactly?
^^^^ CB: That massive Left/leftish, sexy , charismatic progressive movement. You know like Max once said " Libidinous Business Observer- list.
This is exhausting. I need a Duvall.
.d.
^^^^^ CB: What are you doing ? Jogging with a laptop as you type.