[lbo-talk] Unproductive labor

[Michael McIntyre]

So isn't the question "productive of what"?  You're right about  
surplus value (under capitalism - some of these activities would not  
have been productive of surplus value under other modes of  
production, and vice versa).  But if the counterfactual is a non- 
surplus-value producing economy (take Schweickart's, if you wish),  
then you would have to talk about what activities are productive or  
unproductive of use-values, either directly or indirectly, no?   
(Which would be distinct from those things that have a price in  
market socialism).  So, for example, unless you buy Marx's very  
unrealistic notion that socialism would be a purely transparent  
society, then some form accounting would still be around, and  
necessary.  It wouldn't produce use values directly, but it would be  
necessary to the production of use values.  On the other hand,  
perhaps even under market socialism the expenditures that go into  
"branding" essentially identical products might be regulated and  
restricted, since these expenditures essentially cancel each other  
out and are a dead-weight loss from the point of view of production  
of use values.

Rambling and disconnected thoughts, I know.  I'm looking forward to  
the discussion.  Is it scheduled for March?

Michael McIntyre

On Feb 12, 2008, at 1:36 PM, andie nachgeborenen wrote:


>
> This was my point. The comrade was maintaining that
> only production of physical objects for sale was
> productive (of SV) and that all paper pushing (in
> particular), FIRE, accountancy, legal services, was
> unproductive rent-taking, just shifting around SV
> created by others.  This part of a left over lament
> about de-industrialization (which can be lamented but
> not, I think on these grounds).
>
> Now some white collar work is mere rent-taking, but I
> maintained that _in general_ any work done for wages
> that has the potential be realized as profit, whether
> goods or services, is "productive") of SV. Here I
> think I agree with Shage Mage as I understand him.
>
>  The reason a trip to grandma's house is not
> productive of SV is that it occurs outside the market
> economy and is not done for wages to make profits. The
> paper pushing work of a commercial lawyer (an
> associate, leave out the complications of partnership)
> occurs inside the market and is done for wages to
> produce profits. The work is productive of SV,
> therefore even if it only involves taking words off
> WEstlaw, thinking about them, and putting words on
> paper.
>
> --- Doug Henwood <dhenwood at panix.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Feb 12, 2008, at 11:42 AM, andie nachgeborenen
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I got into a dispute at a recent Solidarity
>> meeting
>>> about "unproductive labor," whether labor that
>> does
>>> not involve production of physical object
>> generates
>>> surplus value and real profit as opposed to mere
>> rent.
>>
>> Minor point: it's not about the production of a
>> physical object -
>> services can be "productive" in this view. The
>> transportation of
>> vehicular components can be productive. The
>> transportation of people
>> to visit grandma isn't.
>>
>> Doug
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