We're just talking about capitalism here. The discussion is not scheduled yet. March or April, it will be.
--- Michael McIntyre <mcintyremichael at mac.com> wrote:
> So isn't the question "productive of what"? You're
> right about
> surplus value (under capitalism - some of these
> activities would not
> have been productive of surplus value under other
> modes of
> production, and vice versa). But if the
> counterfactual is a non-
> surplus-value producing economy (take Schweickart's,
> if you wish),
> then you would have to talk about what activities
> are productive or
> unproductive of use-values, either directly or
> indirectly, no?
> (Which would be distinct from those things that have
> a price in
> market socialism). So, for example, unless you buy
> Marx's very
> unrealistic notion that socialism would be a purely
> transparent
> society, then some form accounting would still be
> around, and
> necessary. It wouldn't produce use values directly,
> but it would be
> necessary to the production of use values. On the
> other hand,
> perhaps even under market socialism the expenditures
> that go into
> "branding" essentially identical products might be
> regulated and
> restricted, since these expenditures essentially
> cancel each other
> out and are a dead-weight loss from the point of
> view of production
> of use values.
>
> Rambling and disconnected thoughts, I know. I'm
> looking forward to
> the discussion. Is it scheduled for March?
>
> Michael McIntyre
>
> On Feb 12, 2008, at 1:36 PM, andie nachgeborenen
> wrote:
>
> >
> > This was my point. The comrade was maintaining
> that
> > only production of physical objects for sale was
> > productive (of SV) and that all paper pushing (in
> > particular), FIRE, accountancy, legal services,
> was
> > unproductive rent-taking, just shifting around SV
> > created by others. This part of a left over
> lament
> > about de-industrialization (which can be lamented
> but
> > not, I think on these grounds).
> >
> > Now some white collar work is mere rent-taking,
> but I
> > maintained that _in general_ any work done for
> wages
> > that has the potential be realized as profit,
> whether
> > goods or services, is "productive") of SV. Here I
> > think I agree with Shage Mage as I understand him.
> >
> > The reason a trip to grandma's house is not
> > productive of SV is that it occurs outside the
> market
> > economy and is not done for wages to make profits.
> The
> > paper pushing work of a commercial lawyer (an
> > associate, leave out the complications of
> partnership)
> > occurs inside the market and is done for wages to
> > produce profits. The work is productive of SV,
> > therefore even if it only involves taking words
> off
> > WEstlaw, thinking about them, and putting words on
> > paper.
> >
> > --- Doug Henwood <dhenwood at panix.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> On Feb 12, 2008, at 11:42 AM, andie nachgeborenen
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I got into a dispute at a recent Solidarity
> >> meeting
> >>> about "unproductive labor," whether labor that
> >> does
> >>> not involve production of physical object
> >> generates
> >>> surplus value and real profit as opposed to mere
> >> rent.
> >>
> >> Minor point: it's not about the production of a
> >> physical object -
> >> services can be "productive" in this view. The
> >> transportation of
> >> vehicular components can be productive. The
> >> transportation of people
> >> to visit grandma isn't.
> >>
> >> Doug
> >> ___________________________________
> >>
> >
>
http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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>
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