Dwayne Monroe
Not so long ago, 'hater' (with a 'jealously' chaser) was used pretty freely on-list to describe those of us who criticized Sen. Obama's progressive credentials -- or, more to the point, the progressive credentials others tried to affix to his lovely suit.
^^^ CB: Yea, I still use "obsessive Obama haters" to describe the long term trend on this list. I first applied the hip hop slang "hater" ( envy; not jealousy) as a last resort and retort to "Obamaniac" , and other such _ad hominems_ on the mental health of Barry supporters. One good _ad hominem_ deserves another. After a long time hearing "maniacs", I used "hater", a bit tongue in cheek, and it was also because I couldn't understand why Doug and friends were so exclusively and frequently focused on criticizing Barry , and not Clinton at all ( nor McCain now).
I still don't understand it, and it is still out-to-lunch, even in the context of recent Barry center shifts. To not be criticizing McCain is infantilism, straight up. As I said long ago, O's running as a Democrat, and always has been. Get real, people. Why do you think the left is "such as it is" ?
^^^^
Obviously, it was a discussion killer. Whenever 'hater' was deployed,
^^^^ CB: Whereas "Obmaniac" wasn't , right ? Lets be clear. You all started it with "Obamaniac" and other attacks on the mental health or rationality of Barry supporters. You did that for a long time, and still do, before I had to pull out "hater" to counter your obsessive Barry hating, which continues to this day and to this very thread.
^^^^^ there wasn't a need to consider the arguments at-hand, you could just say that your debating opponent was a future hating crank and tra la la on your way.
^^^^ CB: Naw, you got plenty of counters to your "arguments" , which from the beginning included you all doing the name calling . Surely, you recall "obamaniac" came first. Obamaniac is not an argument. Anyway, as to the arguments, you were saying empty things like "there is no substance to Obama; it's mindless enthusiasm". That's begging the question. Being for ending the war was substance superior to the Republicans. Masses of whites voting for a Black candidate is substance beyond compare. Having a health care plan, even if not Conyers', is better than the Republicans, not to mention that Clinton's was not "single-payer" either, about which not a peep. Tax cuts for the "lower middle incomed" is substantive. Proposing federal aid for turning the auto industry in a green direction is substance. A Black man urging Black men to take more parental responsibility is out right feminist ! Men doing more childcare is a long time feminist position. Jesse Jackson used to do long raps on this issue ( a boy can make a baby; it takes a man to take care of his children). Even Obama's mantra that change comes not from the top down , but from the bottom up is substantive. It was patently false to claim there was no substance to Barry's campaign. It was a gross slander. And you sure weren't foolin' me with it , and you sure ain't foolin me now with the undeserved pats on the back you are giving yourselves.
^^^^
'Hater' also served as a nice deflector shield:
^^^^^ CB: Whereas, "Obamaniac" served as a what ?
^^^^^
as I said, most on-list criticisms weren't leveled at Obama per se (who several of us have always understood to be just a Dem candidate, carrying the usual baggage) but at his lefty supporters, the people making out-sized claims about the remarkable things waiting to happen, just around the inaugural bend.
^^^^ CB: Who were these "strawpeople" making claims about remarkable things waiting to happen after inauguration ? Name one. Wasn't anybody on this list . All of those here who said things positive about Barry were very measured and limited, and recognized that he was not running as a leftist, but as a centrist. These maniacs were always somebody in the Obama haters' illusions. "Arguments" like this were exactly why I looked for psychological explanations for Doug's obsession with finding anything and everything he could to try to bang Barry, often writing headings that distorted what he posted. It was astonishingly dishonest, such that one had to think it was hate or something strange. Still is real strange. Why no criticisms of Clinton who was clearly as much of a centrist. Now we have the bizarre implications that McCain is better than Barry.
^^^^
By calling 'hater!', the debate's flow was re-directed away from an examination of the left (as is) and uselessly towards a back and forth about the supposed virtues or evils of Sen. Obama.
^^^^ CB; Whereas, "Obamaniac" , which definitely came before "hater" redirects the debates flow to where it should be . Try a little criticism/self-criticism on name calling. Surely you recall that "Obamaniac" came first. It's in the archives.
^^^^^
Perhaps the most interesting example of this was the Obama/Wright thing; quite a few people accused the Reverend of being a 'hater' for having the temerity to continue preaching as he's done for many years -- talking about imperialism and so on. Since, at the time, this appeared to give the Senator's adversaries ammunition, the Rev. was declared a hater for refusing to either join in singing hosannas to change or, if that was too difficult, sitting quietly until the election was over.
^^^^ CB: The term my mother used for Wright was "childish". And she's never heard of Lenin's _Leftwing Communism: An Infantile Disorder_. Other, (Black) people were saying unexplained sabotage. And , yes, maybe a little envy. If not for Obama's campaign , not too many people would be listening to Wright's speeches. So, why use Barry's dime to get your own message out, when he's going to be tagged with your line ?
But I also suspect Wright might have been doing the same thing I suspect Jesse Jackson just did: using reverse psychology on the Wright-Jackson haters ( not in the envy sense here; but racist anti-leftists) So, maybe Wright wasn't infantile but very clever.
I wrote about this here:
<http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/pipermail/lbo-talk/Week-of-Mon-20080428/007671.html>
I could be wrong, but I think the 'hater' maneuver is a very American thing. I'm not sure there's a strong tradition of actual debate in this country, which places great emphasis on people being either entirely right or entirely wrong (one of the reasons why the scientific method is so little understood). Calling 'hater' is probably just one item on a long list of American discussion-killing techniques.
^^^ CB: I took it straight from hip hop ( which is American , yea), meaning envy, 'cause I couldn't think of any other reason for the obsessive, exaggerated attacks on Barry , with no criticism of Clinton. There still is no good explanation for the obsession with criticizing O, with no balancing criticisms of McCain.
.d.
-- "Even bad men love their mommas."
Ben Wade
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