i'm new to this list too. that's one reason i originally wondered if you were serious -- there is so much sarcasm here, and the hazing culture seems pretty ongoing, although not ubiquitous.
i understand the attraction of Bifo and the autonomists, though i am still trying to get clear on that piece of history. I think every revolutionary or even quasi revolutionary effort and temporary actualization has to be evaluated and understood in its own context, and studying the details. Otherwise we really learn nothing useful.
I don't think we can do without a statist structure of some kind. Try living somewhere that basically doesn't have one. As far as people taking power, what is going to induce them to do that (besides desperation) and what is going to teach them how to succeed? The fulfillment of anarchist ideals requires deep changes in most people's subjectivities and behavior. If we (people) can't create enough of the kind of social and economic structures that foster these changes, "revolutions" become rearrangements of authoritarianism.
Chavez indeed looks like a good candidate for the next Castro but this is why i found it so heartening to observe what seems to be a substantive change in what people expect of themselves and government. It was a good sign that the last referendum chavez proposed did not pass.
you are right about the inflation problem (as far as i know). This is beyond my own useful powers of analysis, but at least a period of time is being produced in which historically disenfranchised people are experiencing entitlement and self-valorization. There are a lot of ways to ruin an economy, for instance, ripping off poor people with predatory loans, and then bailing out the thiefs.
And you are right about the continued exploitation of natural resources. No state or continental block yet has figured out how to reorient this but they are going to have to figure something out fast, and i don't think we can wait for the demise of the nation-state.
as for spanish civil war, my point was that the stalinists then and the anarchists they betrayed then are not accurate correlatives for the venezuelan state and the anarchist protestors there now. It's often the ideologues that destroy revolutionary efforts because they are myopically fixated on a form that is usually insensitive to context and try to impose this on the vital possibilities forged in the particulars of time and place (when it's not 'counter-revolutionaries' funded by imperialists). So far the ideologies guiding or generated by the bolivarians (because there is always ideology) do not seem to have this asphyxiating power.
At 1:04 PM -0800 2/29/08, Paul Papadeas wrote:
>>Soon - as the capitalist crisis causes workers to lose even more of
>>their rights and benefits (but never collapses) - you will
>>inevitably see people start to organize independently in
>>conjunction of their muncipalities/local governments to solve
>>common problems - it has already started.
yep, it's already started.
thanks for the vollies,
claire
>
>At 1:04 PM -0800 2/29/08, Paul Papadeas wrote:
>>Hi Claire,
>>
>>Thank you for your comments. They are insightful. I am pretty well
>>traveled and but just do not have the money to go out to South
>>America at this point.
>>
>>I find myself being hazed as a first time poster to LBO - but that
>>is ok. I am a libertarian socialist and believe that PEOPLE must
>>ultimately take power of the means of production.
>>
>>I still vote, I still believe in perserving the social gains that
>>workers have fought for - I supported Chavez - to a point - my fear
>>is the inherent weakness of social democractic reform in the face
>>of a capitalist counter-revolutionary onslaught. I support it but
>>over the years have realized the long term impotence of this
>>perspective or "transitory" phase in solving problems against
>>capital and its military protectors.
>>
>>Glad to hear that atleast some of his policies are being
>>implemented. I usually go to a site called Venenzuelananalysis to
>>obtain some crucial information.
>>
>>But, can there really be a true egalitarian society thriving among
>>capitalist competitors? Won't they constantly be bunkered up in a
>>militaristic defensive posture? Look what happened to Cuba - it
>>degenerated into an authoritarian dictatorship.
>>
>>And I merely placed the article from FOREIGN AFFAIRS to show how a
>>symathetic moderate of Chavez has charted a poor showing from his
>>policies. Maybe it is propaganda - but how is Chavez running
>>inflationary figures with so much oil wealth? Didn't Allende have
>>this problem (not from oil wealth obviously) due to the increased
>>social spending (all within the context of the capitalist system)?
>>Does it work within the system? Does it keep the state competitive?
>>
>>Moreover, I used the Spanish example to show how Stalinists in the
>>past recuperated independent radical workers strikes to unite them
>>into unions (mostly recuperated arms of state/corporate control of
>>radical workers movements) - which ultimately took the teeth out of
>>the actions of these people by replacing their concious political
>>sabotage with a TV or marginally better health benefits.
>>
>>As long as this is the case - as long as the "state" plays a role
>>in the commodity production game - then - you will always
>>inevitably see the reactions by the elite to be more and more
>>severe - to fight for new markets and expand, cheap labor, to
>>discipline the workers with technological innovations.
>>
>>From an Autonomist perspective: Keynisian policies and strong labor
>>class led to the last 28 years of Neo-liberal counter revolution.
>>What good did it do?
>>
>>There were many flaws in the Keynsian model, because it was still
>>based on the basic principles of the boom and bust cycle of
>>production.
>>
>>Now - we have the new synthetic virtual economy - labor is freed up
>>from central control (which has turned out to be a blessing and
>>curse) - and there is potential for a social revolution.
>>
>>I am for complete social revolution - and an internationalist. I am
>>against nationalisms and borders/boundaries of any stripe. As long
>>as you have competing nation states - you will never solve issues
>>such as global warming, etc..
>>
>>So, yes - I may be ignorant but I am NOT religious as everyone
>>states - because I do not have HOPE in this system.
>>
>>I merely survive in it - held hostage at gunpoint by the military
>>apparatus. What can I do. I can resist in my thoughts and even if
>>my actions are somewhat mediated - they work towards subversion
>>(meaning authentic social connection) outside the value exchange.
>>
>>Soon - as the capitalist crisis causes workers to lose even more of
>>their rights and benefits (but never collapses) - you will
>>inevitably see people start to organize independently in
>>conjunction of their muncipalities/local governments to solve
>>common problems - it has already started.
>>
>>Best,
>>
>>Paul
>>
>>Claire Pentecost <cpente at saic.edu> wrote:
>>
>>Paul, is your post serious?
>>if you are satirizing a certain kind of archaic ideologue, you can
>>have a good laugh at my reaction.
>>And if you are serious, and believe in some fantasy of revolutionary
>>change employing no hybrid or transitional forms, you won't be
>>interested in what i have to say but i can't let it go, as there is
>>so much ignorance
>>
>>on what is happening in venezuela:
>>
>>state capitalism, yes. It seems pretty clear now that all capitalism
>>is some form of state capitalism, just in different arrangements. The
>>differences are significant in living people's lives.
>>
>>I have visited venezuela once in 1990, and twice 2005 and 2006,
>>because the hype from both chavistas and anti-chavistas was and still
>>is simplistic and not credible. I have also sought out many different
>>sources for news and background.
>>
>>In the multiple central districts of caracas, a visitor would think
>>that it's all a disaster. The majority of the corporate owned press
>>hates him, the many daily papers and television news, and they are
>>allowed to operate without censorship, no matter what you hear
>>(though one news outlet has been censored since then). There are two
>>TV stations that support him-- one is operated by the government and
>>the other by sympathetic media activists who also run documentaries
>>on leftist struggles from many parts of the globe as well as videos
>>made in the barrios. Otherwise chavez and the bolivarian revolution
>>is fraudulent and worse to the media. Several restaurant owners and
>>taxi drivers i talked to also think he is ruining the country, but
>>they also revealed that they believe the kind of market
>>fundamentalist cant constantly spewed from the U.S.
>>
>>Chavez is hated because he is actually redistributing power and
>>resources to the overwhelming majority of Venezuelans who have never
>>benefited from the country's wealth, namely the oil.
>>
>>When we visited the barrios, vast hillsides of self-made and
>>otherwise substandard housing that surrounds caracas, they are
>>energized. They are organized and their activities suggest that one
>>of the major things that has changed is that if they organize, they
>>get support to improve their own lives and communities. But they have
>>to self organize, which i think is very interesting, and doesn't
>>resemble keynesian programs that i am familiar with.
>>
>>The people i talked to have had health care for the first time,
>>thanks to the oil for doctors deal with cuba. They are getting free
>>and accessible education for the first time. The literacy programs
>>are for real.
>>
>>every one carries around a copy of the constitution and many i talked
>>to can quote various sections establishing their rights. There are
>>kiosks on the streets (not government run) which sell copies.
>>
>>in the small towns, i visited also populated mostly by the poor, i
>>had the same kinds of conversations.
>>
>>yes, chavez's cult of personality is ridiculous. It's completely
>>disturbing, but it would be foolish to ignore the real redistribution
>>that has happened under his administration. And one has to enjoy his
>>outrageous ridicule of the U.S.
>>
>>The militarism was also disturbing to me, but in most of Latin
>>America, no one has a prayer of achieving and maintaining any kind of
>>power without the sympathy and respect of the military. If the
>>military was still on the side of the baronistic capitalists they
>>would have taken chavez down long ago as they tried to do. And/or he
>>would have been murdered and overthrown by the U.S.ual imperialists.
>>No one has forgotten what happened to Allende.
>>
>>Interestingly, he is arming the people. In the towns we saw
>>volunteers doing miliatary exercises on the main squares at night.
>>men and women. What are you doing? We are protecting the pueblo!
>>
>>It's weird that leftists from affluent countries idealize che and
>>then criticize the militarism of chavez.
>>
>>I don't buy Holloway's change the world without taking power. The
>>people in power don't give an inch.
>>
>>Chavez is also creating a block of resistance among Latin american
>>countries that care to resist their historical geopolitical
>>exploitation. This is one of the things that makes the "bolivarian
>>revolution" most interesting. In fact, it is one of the most
>>promising and exciting places in the world right now, perhaps having
>>benefitted from the u.s. distraction in the middle east etc.
>>
>>I know this is just an anecdotal short-hand reply, but it's so
>>tedious to hear ignorant people railing against chavez in favor of
>>the total over-throw of capitalism. Such attitudes seem to care
>>nothing for the quality of actual people's lives.
>>
>>and this has nothing to do with what happened in spain several decades ago!
>>
>>and in the department of non sequitur, my boyfriend just read me this quote:
>>
>>the older i grow, the more i distrust the familiar doctrine that age
>>brings wisdom... h.l. mencken
>>
>>claire
>>
>>
>>>Here we again - the inner authoritarian socialism of the "old left
>>>guard" wheezing its last, putrid breath. The Capitalists are
>>>salivating....They remember...
>>>
>>> Socialism for the 21s century = Version 2.0 of State Capitalism =
>>>a return to managed capitalism and Keynesian policies which were
>>>overall ineffective - causing high unemployment and inflation.
>>>
>>> So Chavez and his bloated state capitalists are now blaming
>>>anarchists for the instability in his country on true radicals?
>>>
>>> After all of his empty, bombastic rhetoric - Chavez is nothing but
>>>a reformer of the state - a cadre class that will create an ugly
>> >bureaucratic nightmare rivaling that of the corporate oligarchy that
>>>he has been trying to replace and which has allowed him to be
>>>championed by the celebrities of the left.
>>>
>>> Does all of this sound vaguely familiar? Haven't we been down
>>>this path before?
>>>
>>> I guess he has recently read Lenin's - Left Wing Communism - An
>>>Infantile Disorder. When I read an article like this one below - I
>>>think of all of the betrayed Spanish brothers who fought against
>>>Franco and all of the Stalinist scum who have betrayed every great
>>>worker revolution in the world in the last 50+ years with their
>>>state unions. These people doing the protesting are for an overthrow
>>>of capitalism period - not its plastic surgery.
>>>
>>> Moreover, I disagree with Chavez's cult of personality, machismo
>>>nationalist bourgeois movements like this one as I do statist
>>>Leninist "centralized" conceptions or anything resembling "managed
>>>capitalism" pushed on the masses by the likes of left wing
>>>recuperators like Kuttner and Klein.
>>>
>>> Good critical review of THE SHOCK DOCTRINE..
>>>
>>> http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/feb2008/kle1-f27.shtml
>>>
>>> http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/feb2008/kle2-f28.shtml
>>>
>>> Read these articles to get a sense that Chavez's system is running
>>>on empty - the global elite class is figuring him out and the tune
>>>he plays is outdated as an alternative to capital.
>>>
>>>
>>>http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20080301faessay87205/francisco-rodriguez/an-empty-revolution.html
>>>
>>> Bush, Obama, Clinton, Sarkozy, Chavez and Castro, all these
>>>messiah's of representative democracy ad nauseam should all be
>>>fought against tooth and nail.
>>>
>>> State Capitalism is anathema to the perpetuation of our human
>>>civilization - it has gone beyond its positive use for development
>>>and need in our time. It is the scourge of the world and the source
>>>of all of our problems.
>>>
>>> - Paul
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Eric wrote:
>>> [The sound you here is Zizek moaning his approval.]
>>>
>>>Chavez Says Activists May Trigger Backfire Against `Revolution'
>>>
>>>By Matthew Walter
>>>
>>>Feb. 28 (Bloomberg) -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez criticized
>>>activists who occupied the archbishop's palace in Caracas and held
>>>protests in front of a private television network in the name of his
>>>Bolivarian revolution, saying the acts may lead to violence.
>>>
>>>Chavez said social activist Lina Ron, who led a group of about 20
>>>Chavez supporters in yesterday's occupation of the archbishop's
>>>palace, acted irresponsibly.
>>>
>>>``Lina Ron, I adore her, but I have to criticize her, because this is
>>>a big display of a lack of discipline,'' Chavez said in comments
>>>broadcast by state television. ``What it leads you to believe is that
>>>these groups, which say they are revolutionary, have been
>>>infiltrated, so that through these actions they can erase the
>>>government's successes, and cause violent reactions.''
>>>
>>>The ``anarchist'' groups that claim to be part of his political
>>>movement are overshadowing progress being made by the government in
>>>eliminating food shortages and improving healthcare, Chavez said.
>>>
>>>Since voters rejected the president's proposal to rewrite the
>>>constitution in December, handing him his first electoral defeat in
>>>nine years, he has focused on fixing problems that affect his poor
>>>base of supporters.
>>>
>>&g;The president said that last night's protest at Globovision was
>>>``risky,'' saying it could cause the same kind of damage that the
>>>``ultra-left'' in Chile did to President Salvador Allende in 1973,
>>>when he was overthrown in a bloody coup.
>>>
>>>``Some of these so-called Bolivarian circles, nobody knows what their
>>>plan is,'' Chavez said. ``I've met with some of them, and I was very
>>>concerned. They seem more like anarchistic groups.''
>>>___________________________________
>>>http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>---------------------------------
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>>>___________________________________
>>>http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
>>
>>___________________________________
>>http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
>>
>>
>>
>>
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