[lbo-talk] The State and Capitalism

[John Thornton]

Bill Bartlett wrote:
> At 7:02 PM -0400 11/3/08, Doug Henwood wrote:
>
>   
>> The reason I brought up the last several thousand years is that money 
>> became necessary as soon as people weren't feeding and clothing their 
>> immediate selves - i.e., as soon as any kind of trade was introduced. 
>> Money arises in exchange, as they say. And though there's a diff 
>> between the capitalist commodity and other kinds, it's very very hard 
>> to imagine how you can have some kind of trade without money. What
>> moneyless social relations involving complex trade can you imagine?
>>     
>
> You have to imagine an economy that isn't based on markets and 
> trading, where goods and services are produced freely, because people 
> need them and used freely. It isn't unimaginable, in fact it even 
> occurs quite frequently within our capitalist economy. In those 
> necessary spheres of need which are don't have the capacity to 
> generate a profit. And even some spheres where there is the potential 
> for profit, but where it is becoming inescapably obvious that markets 
> are a hindrance. People freely give their labour in all kinds of 
> voluntary activities.
>   

You can't feed the world with something like Fallenfruit.org no matter 
how much one wishes to believe otherwise.


> Trade is, contrary to your claim, unnatural. It arises because of 
> scarcity. it can only continue in circumstances of scarcity and these 
> days the scarcity must often be artificially maintained in order to 
> prop up the market economy. Artificial scarcity is the real story of 
> the modern capitalist economy.
>   

Trade is as natural as breathing. Hunter gatherer societies traded 
items. Get a grip.


> Its hard to imagine how it can be kept up indefinitely, though we see 
> frantic efforts to do so. Which of course result in enormous misery. 
> Let me turn your question around then, what kind of a market economy 
> can you imagine that DOESN'T require a degree of poverty to continue 
> to exist?
>
> Bill Bartlett
> Bracknell Tas
I've listed such a proposal more than once. Check the archives.
In a nutshell I believe in markets for some goods but not others and not 
for labor.
I believe all work should be voluntary and that regardless of input 
everyone should be allowed an equal remuneration.
Check the archives for greater depth than above. No, I have no idea 
under what subject heading it is listed.
The balls in your court. Outline a moneyless industrial society that 
explains simple things like housing, transportation, medical care and 
education, etc.
What am I to give the doctor in exchange for surgery or are doctors just 
expected to do such things free of charge for everyone who asks in 
exchange for nothing? How do we get anyone to undergo the education 
necessary to perform surgery? Who makes their equipment and how does the 
doctor acquire it? How do we know how many doctors we need?

John Thornton