I am prepared to admit that being an accountant isn't intrinsically rewarding but tends ot pay better than being a maid...however, the point is moot; without money we'd have no need of accountants anyway.
On Mar 11, 2008, at 9:28 PM, John Thornton wrote:
> Bill Bartlett wrote:
>> At 7:02 PM -0400 11/3/08, Doug Henwood wrote:
>>
>>
>>> The reason I brought up the last several thousand years is that
>>> money
>>> became necessary as soon as people weren't feeding and clothing
>>> their
>>> immediate selves - i.e., as soon as any kind of trade was
>>> introduced.
>>> Money arises in exchange, as they say. And though there's a diff
>>> between the capitalist commodity and other kinds, it's very very
>>> hard
>>> to imagine how you can have some kind of trade without money. What
>>> moneyless social relations involving complex trade can you imagine?
>>>
>>
>> You have to imagine an economy that isn't based on markets and
>> trading, where goods and services are produced freely, because people
>> need them and used freely. It isn't unimaginable, in fact it even
>> occurs quite frequently within our capitalist economy. In those
>> necessary spheres of need which are don't have the capacity to
>> generate a profit. And even some spheres where there is the potential
>> for profit, but where it is becoming inescapably obvious that markets
>> are a hindrance. People freely give their labour in all kinds of
>> voluntary activities.
>>
>
> You can't feed the world with something like Fallenfruit.org no matter
> how much one wishes to believe otherwise.
>
>> Trade is, contrary to your claim, unnatural. It arises because of
>> scarcity. it can only continue in circumstances of scarcity and these
>> days the scarcity must often be artificially maintained in order to
>> prop up the market economy. Artificial scarcity is the real story of
>> the modern capitalist economy.
>>
>
> Trade is as natural as breathing. Hunter gatherer societies traded
> items. Get a grip.
>
>> Its hard to imagine how it can be kept up indefinitely, though we see
>> frantic efforts to do so. Which of course result in enormous misery.
>> Let me turn your question around then, what kind of a market economy
>> can you imagine that DOESN'T require a degree of poverty to continue
>> to exist?
>>
>> Bill Bartlett
>> Bracknell Tas
> I've listed such a proposal more than once. Check the archives.
> In a nutshell I believe in markets for some goods but not others
> and not
> for labor.
> I believe all work should be voluntary and that regardless of input
> everyone should be allowed an equal remuneration.
> Check the archives for greater depth than above. No, I have no idea
> under what subject heading it is listed.
> The balls in your court. Outline a moneyless industrial society that
> explains simple things like housing, transportation, medical care and
> education, etc.
> What am I to give the doctor in exchange for surgery or are doctors
> just
> expected to do such things free of charge for everyone who asks in
> exchange for nothing? How do we get anyone to undergo the education
> necessary to perform surgery? Who makes their equipment and how
> does the
> doctor acquire it? How do we know how many doctors we need?
>
> John Thornton
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>