--- On Thu, 4/23/09, Jordan Hayes <jmhayes at j-o-r-d-a-n.com> wrote:
> From: Jordan Hayes <jmhayes at j-o-r-d-a-n.com>
> Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Americans sorta like torture if it works
> To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> Date: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 3:28 PM
> Wojtek, missing Michael's point,
> writes:
>
> > Waterboarding involves risk prevention not
> retribution,
> > the latter being the purpose of criminal justice.
>
> Michael wasn't suggesting waterboarding for punishment; he
> was suggesting that it be used to find the truth: whether
> waterboarding can really be expected to produce actionable
> intelligence. There's a suspicion that it cannot; but
> there's an assertion by Cheney that it can.
>
[WS:] There is no risk involved in the failure to obtain actionable intelligence in a criminal justice case - at least not the same kind risk as in obtaining actionable intelligence to prevent imminent danger. Nothing will happen if Mr. Cheney goes unpunished, but a lot of bad things may happen if terrorists are not caught.
As I already said, the only choice in a criminal justice case is that between two principles - due process vs. retribution - so the actual decision depends solely on the value attached to each principle. If one attaches a greater value to due process, one may not mind sacrificing the retribution principle, and vice versa. This, I believe, is major distinguishing line between liberals and conservatives.
By contrats, counter-terrorism is not about punishment (or retribution) but about risk prevention, so the actions are judged not just in terms of values (i.e. the cost of the action versus the benefit that action may bring) but also in terms of probabilities attached to both cost and benefit. Very different from criminal justice.
If you want my opinion, I think that intelligence obtained through torture of any kind is basically garbage - not just useless but counterproductive, as the informants have every incentive to "confess" regardless of the truth function of that "confession." But that is my value judgment, which is beside the point.
Wojtek