On Oct 3, 2009, at 3:30 PM, SA wrote:
> Michael Pollak wrote:
>
>> The better known is in the speech to the Congress of the
>> International in
>> 1872 in Amsterdam:
>>
>> *** We do not deny that there exist countries like America,
>> England, and, if I knew your institutions better, I would add
>> Holland, where the workers may be able to attain their ends by
>> peaceful means. If that is true we must also recognize that inmost
>> of the countries of the Continent force must be the lever to which
>> it will be necessary to resort for a time in order to attain the
>> dominion of labour. ***
>
> This quote is what I was referring to here, but I couldn't remember
> where it was from: http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/pipermail/lbo-talk/Week-of-Mon-20090928/013527.html
> .
>
> It's been argued that Marx said that to propitiate his audience,
> because this view predominated in the Dutch section and splits over
> this question were causing tension in the International. But since
> he apparently repeated the sentiment in a private letter, that
> explanation seems insufficient.
>
> I wonder how the Leninists respond to these quotes?
Lenin, unwilling to seem critical of Marx, "distinguished" these remarks as applying only because of the absence of a standing army in those countries. But, of course, Marx was wrong. True, the English and Dutch armies were half a world away repressing their colonies. But by their "institutions" both countries were "constitutional" monarchies, whose sovereigns had more than enough legal power to frustrate any such "peaceful" overthrow--any Marxist majority party would never, ever, be permitted to take office legally. As for the USA Marx was even wronger. The American capitalist class, already at that epoch, was the most violent. brutal, and rapacious ruling class in the history of the world. The majority of the working class was entirely disfranchised (the 15th amendment to the contrary notwithstanding). And a big army of veteran killers, busily engaged in exterminating the indigenous population of the county just as it had been for nearly a century, was only a few days (by railroad) away from the urban centers.
Shane Mage
> This cosmos did none of gods or men make, but it
> always was and is and shall be: an everlasting fire,
> kindling in measures and going out in measures."
>
> Herakleitos of Ephesos