On Sep 23, 2009, at 5:05 PM, Wojtek S wrote:
> RE: "Face it. The US political system is plutocracy, not democracy.
> Always has been."
>
> [WS:] I think it is an oversimplification that obscures more than it
> reveals.... Its political institutions were created by plantation
> owners and businessmen whose overarching objective was to avoid
> replicating a European monarchic system, and instead creating a
> 'democracy' by the 18th century standards..."
"created by plantation owners and businessmen"--the very definition of
plutocracy. And in the 18th century "democracy" was supported only by
a handful of revolutionary dreamers. The founders, constituting a
weak, newly established plutocracy, dreaded democracy far more than
monarchy (Hamilton wanted to make Washington king, or at least
president-for-life). Hence the anti-democratic, though liberal and
decentralized, Constitution.
>
> ...That system of political parties and courts is far more conducive
> to voicing
> interest of the wealthy than a system with a strong central
> government -
> which creates an impression of plutocracy... But the key point
> is... the unsually strong power of political parties and courts
> (both responsive to special interest groups) vis a vis that of the
> central government.
>
And what, pray tell, is a "special interest group" other than a
plutocratic faction with its dependent clientele?
> On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Shane Mage <shmage at pipeline.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Sep 23, 2009, at 11:23 AM, Max B. Sawicky wrote:
>>
>> The closer democracy got to Ralph, the less he liked it.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Face it. The US political system is plutocracy, not democracy.
>> Always
>> has been. Ralph Nader knows that better than anyone, having
>> consistently
>> experienced being denied such elementary democratic rights as
>> ballot access
>> and participation in national debate. Nobody in national political
>> life is
>> close to his equal as an advocate for democracy and opponent of
>> corporate
>> plutocracy.
>>
>> His new book, as described, seems like a clever illustration of the
>> program
>> of a real democratic movement. In the absence of such a movement--
>> thanks to
>> all the liberals, labor skates, and conformist leftists who gave us
>> (most
>> recently) Clinton, Obama, et. al., as lesser evils to even more
>> stupid
>> plutocrats--Ralph presents as historical fiction an illustration of
>> his
>> program as realized by the only people with the authority to do so, a
>> fictional group of enlightened plutocrats doing what, in real life,
>> they had
>> obviously no desire to do. A new way to make his consistent point,
>> so
>> difficult for Dumbocratic leftists to grasp, the the US is a liberal
>> plutocracy, not a democracy.
>>
>> Shane Mage
>>
>> This cosmos did none of gods or men make, but it
>>> always was and is and shall be: an everlasting fire,
>>> kindling in measures and going out in measures."
>>>
>>> Herakleitos of Ephesos
>>>