[WS:] While I did not say the proper magic words to acknowledge importance of historical context, I do believe that such context is absolutely essential to the argument that I posted. Adolescence is a social construct of the industrial age and modernity. Even more so, its based on certain relations of production under which children generally do not automatically step into the occupational roles played by their parents (e.g. by taking over the family farm or shop) but rather depend on their parents in acquiring occupational skills that increases the value of their labor power sold to owners of the means of production and hence gives them a competitive edge over the other suppliers of labor power.
The adolescent attitudes that I describe would be completely out of place in a different society, say, one that depends on communal production - as Thomas & Znaniecki make it clear in their classic work "Polish Peasant in Europe and America."
Wojtek On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Alan Rudy <alan.rudy at gmail.com> wrote:
> My sense is that this completely fails as a tool to understanding
> twenty-somethings in the US and Europe between 1965 and 1980. As sociology
> it is ahistorical and desituated lifecourse social psychology. There is no
> such thing as an "age" absent its historical and spatial context. I've
> known as many communitarian twenty-somethings of various populist,
> anarchist
> and socialist stripes as I've known libertarian ones, though of course the
> vast majority I've known are go-along-to-get-along types who alternately
> pursue what they think they want to do after which time they play by the
> rules of the game.
> If you are right in any usefully generalizable way, Wojtek, then you have
> to
> find a way to fit your argument to the joinerism and suppression of
> individualism tied to fraternities and sororities, to the Izzone or Cameron
> Crazies (have you seen the homogeneity and depth of commitment among fans
> of
> bowl-bound college football teams, of Yankee fans?), to the His House and
> Jews for Jesus crowds, to pop, metal, post-punk, hip hop and Twilight
> fandom, to TeaPartydom or Obamamania among the 18-28 set.
> I don't buy it, I'm happy to agree that there's a surge but I'm completely
> unwilling to attribute it to some sort of transhistorical - or even
> straightforwardly "modern" - category of twenty-somethingness.
> Alan
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 9:24 AM, Wojtek S <wsoko52 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > RE:Oh god. Has there been a large surge in Randian and libertarian
> worship
> > among the 20 something crowd?
> >
> > I ask because my father's sister has has five daughters who had several
> > boys
> > who are now mostly in there early to late 20s, and it seems they are
> nearly
> > all entranced by Rand, Nozick, and libertarian tripe in general.
> >
> > [WS:] I find that hardly surprising. The "twentysomething" is a stupid
> > age
> > in which people tend to go on self-empowerment trips. Consequently, they
> > tend to be susceptible to arrogant anti-social ideologies proclaiming the
> > virtues of the heroic individual, with whom they identify, over the
> > faceless
> > mass enemy, which stands for their parents, teachers and other authority
> > figures from which they feel recently "liberated." It explains the
> > popularity of such youth movements like Hitlerjugend, Komsomol, Red
> Guards,
> > anarchists, Young Republicans or libertarians.
> >
> > It seems to work like that. In their adolescence, these people (mainly
> of
> > middle class background) are inculcated with feelings of self-importance
> > through the middle-class socialization and education that emphasizes
> > individualism, personal achievement, leadership etc. Yet the social and
> > institutional reality provides little actual opportunity for the
> > realization
> > of these individualistic ambitions, as most of these "young self-made
> > eagles" will land on entry level corporate positions where they have to
> > kowtow to their bosses or customers and submit to a myriad of rules,
> > regulations, codes, and protocols to stay afloat. So any ideology that
> > extols the virtues of self-made individualism, creativity, innovation,
> risk
> > taking etc. over the ossified social structures, tradition, authorities
> > etc. provides a nice escapist fantasy land for these folks.
> >
> > It is a virtual power trip for frustrated middle class kids, if you will.
> > Rational rebating their newly found ideological glorification of the
> > unbound
> > by social norms individualism is as futile as appeals to control their
> > hormonal surges. It just feeds into their self-gratifying delusions. A
> > better approach is to ask them to postpone that debate until they grow up
> > and get some real-world experience.
> >
> > Wojtek
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 7:57 PM, Bryan Atinsky <bryan at alt-info.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Oh god. Has there been a large surge in Randian and libertarian worship
> > > among the 20 something crowd?
> > >
> > > I ask because my father's sister has has five daughters who had several
> > > boys who are now mostly in there early to late 20s, and it seems they
> are
> > > nearly all entranced by Rand, Nozick, and libertarian tripe in general.
> > >
> > > Lately, some of them have taken to use Facebook as their soap box. It
> is
> > > embarrassing to read their nonsense.
> > > I was wondering if others notice this trend, have to suffer this
> > silliness.
> > > Do I just have the bad luck of the draw, or is this a trend among that
> > > generation?
> > >
> > > Here are some sadly funny quotes from them of late:
> > >
> > > "Why is it that buildings in America can withstand earthquakes and
> strong
> > > hurricanes while buildings in countries in Russia and China crumble
> like
> > > Saltine crackers under similar conditions? "
> > >
> > > "When the strongest free nation is reduced to a socialized welfare
> state
> > > the entire world be will threatened by the tyrant with the biggest army
> > and
> > > the most destructive weapons. In the end, only a one world government
> > > imposing their ideology of how much enough is will be capable of
> > controlling
> > > us and that will be a disaster for those of us that love our freedom. "
> > >
> > > "Our Country donates more money, resources, knowledge, and manpower to
> > help
> > > humanity all around the globe than all other countries combined. Only
> in
> > a
> > > free country can free people help others in need. Capping freedom in
> the
> > > name of "social justice" will hurt efforts to end human suffering
> > globally."
> > >
> > > I mistakenly tried to answer a quote of their's from Nozick: "Taxation
> of
> > > earnings from labor is on a par with forced labor"
> > >
> > > With this quick critique from me: "One big problem with Nozick's
> minimal
> > > state (and libertarian nonsense in general) is that as the differential
> > > distribution of resources inevitably grows more and more monopolistic
> in
> > a
> > > feedback loop, in your dream society, the percentage of the population
> > > impoverished will grow, and unlike Nozick's utopia, they will not take
> > this
> > > sitting down, and the only way to ensure a retention of this
> distribution
> > > would be an extremely large police state. Oh goody!"
> > >
> > > Which just set them off on a feeding frenzy:
> > >
> > > "Ouch Brian...the liberal personal attack method is growing weary. Your
> > > dream society seems more like communism, where the distribution of
> > resources
> > > is supposedly equal (unless of coarse you are part of the communist
> > elite).
> > > Only problem is that production is reduced because there is no
> motivation
> > to
> > > even meet demand. Eventually, distribution of basic products requires
> an
> > > extremely large and brutal police state - as history has shown and that
> > is
> > > your reality. Your criticism of Nozick's minimal state is missing a
> very
> > > basic unmeasurable component: Risk. In a free society, individuals have
> > the
> > > freedom to take risks based on perceptions of rewards. Many risks are
> not
> > > successful and thus individuals economic status changes, sometimes
> > > drastically. Sure, you consider your self to be a well indoctrinated
> > liberal
> > > elitist who has all the answers and just wishes others would listen -
> > > because you know it all. You have the inane ability to detect injustice
> > > where ever it's perpetrated anywhere in the universe and immediately
> > > understand what it will take to level the playing field in a fair and
> > just
> > > system. If only others could see things as clearly as you do....But the
> > real
> > > reality is your thoughts are extremely far to the left. Libertarianism
> > > promotes a free society which is what this Country's constitution is
> > based
> > > on. Freedom also offers you the liberty to have an unpopular viewpoint
> > and
> > > the ability to espouse it where ever and when ever you please without
> > fear
> > > of government retribution, jail, or death as was the fate of those
> > fighting
> > > for freedom in Tienanmen Square.What I don't understand is why we need
> > faux
> > > freedom fighters, like you, to correct self perceived injustices. "
> > >
> > > "That is right, you are not a liberal, you are a communist. For some
> > reason
> > > it is more important to you to have social equality than justice and
> > human
> > > rights. You can say that I am prepubescent and i don't care because its
> > not
> > > true but at least I don't have something mentally wrong with me. There
> > are 2
> > > stages to communism, and until you get to the ... See Morepure
> communist
> > > state human rights doesn't matter. That is why over 60 million people
> > have
> > > died in the last century in the name of equality. Also what do you do
> > > besides live off the teet of your wife's work. Well I guess this just
> > proves
> > > that you value your life more than others and so live like a parasite
> and
> > > live off the work of others. You may not agree with my views but you
> have
> > > never stated yours. Get off your ivory tower, just because you have
> been
> > > stuck in college for the last 25 years doesn't mean you know everything
> > or
> > > anything."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___________________________________
> > > http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
> > >
> > ___________________________________
> > http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
> >
>
>
>
> --
> *********************************************************
> Alan P. Rudy
> Dept. Sociology, Anthropology and Social Work
> Central Michigan University
> 124 Anspach Hall
> Mt Pleasant, MI 48858
> 517-881-6319
> ___________________________________
> http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
>