[lbo-talk] sachs and poland

[Gar Lipow]

On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 4:47 AM, shag carpet bomb <shag at cleandraws.com> wrote:
> Aren't you kind of getting at a very fundamental difference that I
> suspect we've never really explored at the list - not so directly
> anyway?
>
> I mean, I think the thing your critics will say is, yeah butt... right
> now, we need politicians to make things better right now. I think,
> here, the goal is to retain the current state and to reform from
> within, no? In which case, a social movement's *only* purpose is for
> agitation, to put the scare into politicians and capitalists so that
> they will concede certain terms in their own enlightened
> self-interest.
>
> Under such a view, there is no role for the members of a social
> movement to play other than to put their bodies out their, in public,
> in order to make capital quake in its boots. Once the powers that be
> make reforms, apparently the goal is to get so much reform that you
> can get the vanguard leadership into positions of power in the
> government and change it even more, no?

I think you are really taking part of a real position, and adding some
stuff to it that is not there. I think a lot of people would say that
one thing movements can sometime accomplish is to make politicians and
the powers that be quake in their boots and reform from within to make
change that relieves some pain and suffering. I don't know where you
get from that to "the only role" or "get the vanguard leadership into
positions of power within government".  If you do win reforms that can
help build a movement. (It can also help destroy it. depends on
circumstances).   I think a more reasonable statement of disagreement
is that some people would claim that such reforms are such an
unpredictable side effect that they should seldom or never be goal,
while others would claim than organizing with such reforms as one goal
is usually worthwhile, and more likely to make them happen (2 separate
assertions by the way). You can leave out the "seldom" and "usually"
if you wish, though I think most on both sides of this argument would
admit to exceptions.
-- 
Facebook: Gar Lipow  Twitter: GarLipow
Grist Blog: http://www.grist.org/member/1598
Static page: http://www.nohairshirts.com