[lbo-talk] My Letter To CH

Gar Lipow gar.lipow at gmail.com
Fri Dec 16 17:04:02 PST 2011


Must have been one of those periods when I was skipping a lot of posts. I think I would have taken the same position on Willis, except that I don't think she ever did anything as terrible as Hitchens. There is a difference between being wrong and doing wrong. Ellis as far as know was never guilty of anything but the former. Incidentally even immediately after death I have never been against clear eyed evaluation that looks at the bad as well as the good. I just feel (don't know if I can call it thinking) that mockery and verbal bombing can wait in all but the most extreme cases. If that was not honored in Willis's case I'm truly sorry.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 3:12 PM, shag carpet bomb <shag at cleandraws.com> wrote:
> here's the thread where Jesse Lemisch complained that people were
> piling on about Ellen Willis only hours after her death was announced.
>
> Lemisch was mocked for being a member of the decorum police for
> thinking people should respect the dead and not criticize them.
>
> http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&site=webhp&source=hp&q=lbo-talk.org+%22ellen+willis+dies%22&pbx=1&oq=lbo-talk.org+%22ellen+willis+dies%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=1466l9594l0l9861l38l32l2l0l0l1l262l4588l11.13.8l34l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=3896cd57a393e6da&biw=1229&bih=509
>
> http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&site=webhp&source=hp&q=lbo-talk.org+%22decorum+police%22&pbx=1&oq=lbo-talk.org+%22decorum+police%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=22554l24671l1l24877l14l11l0l0l0l3l199l1442l5.6l11l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=3896cd57a393e6da&biw=1229&bih=509
>
>
>
> <> I'd completely forgotten anyone here knew him. As far as I was
> <> concerned, all I have ever read was bad stuff about the guy and, in
> <> fact, when I bothered to say nice things about God is Not Great, I
> got
> <> crapped on here at the list for daring to say anything nice.
> <>
> <>  We had this conversation when some feminists passed, and I believe
> <> there was a spirited defense of the right to say shitty things
> about
> <> people right after their death.  I assumed the same habits
> tolerated
> <> in the past would be now and especially to someone who, in my
> reading
> <> of responses to him on this list, was that he was seen as a vile <>
> character for his stance on the war, etc.
> <>
> <> Now that I know that there are special rules for Hitch - sometimes
> <> it's like that, only his friends can shit on him! - my deepest
> <> apologies. Please, friends of Hitch, post when the grss is grown! <>
> <> <> I've always had the opinion (not an intellectual opinion, but a
> <> strong
> <> <> emotional conviction) that at the very least if you were going to
> <> piss
> <> <> on someones grave you should at least wait until the grass is green
> <> on
> <> <> it. That mostly the recently dead get a partial pass , if for no
> <> other
> <> <> reason, the feelings of their survivors. There are exceptions. I
> <> don't
> <> <> hold this opinion absolutely. But (again in my opinion, not
> backed
> <> by
> <> <> any reasoning) the exceptions should be really rare.
> <> <>
> <> <> On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 12:01 PM, Doug Henwood
> <dhenwood at panix.com>
> <> <> wrote:
> <> <>>
> <> <>> On Dec 16, 2011, at 2:54 PM, Dennis Claxton wrote:
> <> <>>
> <> <>>> At 11:38 AM 12/16/2011, // ravi wrote:
> <> <>>>
> <> <>>>> Surely it is not that you think the rest of the world should
> <> <>>>> celebrate or tolerate Hitchens because he was sweet to you?
> <> <>>>
> <> <>>> He was a friend of some people here and they deserve our
> <> <>>> condolences.
> <> <>>
> <> <>> Aside from taking some personal offense at the hostility, it's
> <> also
> <> <>> rather one-dimensional. The guy was complicated. He did many good
> <> <>> things in his life, and many awful ones too. His death is a good
> <> <>> occasion for reflecting on human complexity. His grave isn't one
> <> <>> that should be pissed on.
> <> <>>
> <> <>> Doug
> <> <>> ___________________________________
> <> <>> http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
> <> <>
> <> <>
> <> <>
> <> <> --
> <> <> Facebook: Gar Lipow  Twitter: GarLipow
> <> <> Grist Blog: http://www.grist.org/member/1598
> <> <> Static page: http://www.nohairshirts.com
> <> <>
> <> <> ___________________________________
> <> <> http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
> <> <>
> <>
> <>
> <> --
> <> http://cleandraws.com
> <> Wear Clean Draws
> <> ('coz there's 5 million ways to kill a CEO)
> <>
> <>
> <> ___________________________________
> <> http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
> <>
>
>
> --
> http://cleandraws.com
> Wear Clean Draws
> ('coz there's 5 million ways to kill a CEO)
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________
> http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk

-- Facebook: Gar Lipow  Twitter: GarLipow Grist Blog: http://www.grist.org/member/1598 Static page: http://www.nohairshirts.com



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