Wojtek
On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 10:55 AM, Wojtek S <wsoko52 at gmail.com> wrote:
> [WS:] What I meant to say was that taking away collective identity will
> reduce humanity to a brave new world. Nation is but one form of such
> identity.
>
> As to whether the erosion of national identity is a good or a bad thing -
> it depends what it is replaced with. The chance are that it will be
> replaced with corporate identities and their dreadful authoritarian
> monocultures - and that would be a horrible thing. You can see that when
> you stay in 5-star hotels (which I am trying to avoid as a plague.) No
> matter in what country they are located, they cater to the same dreadful
> corporate life style (golf as the utmost form of pass time, the same
> business attire, the same routines and assortment of luxury products, and
> worst of all the cultivation of the same "everyone is to serve me" attitude.
> Each time I encounter these places I think to myself that when the
> revolution finally comes, these places - and the golf courses affiliated
> with them - will be turned into agricultural cooperatives in which their
> current occupants will learn the virtues of hard labor ;).
>
> Wojtek
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 9:53 AM, Marv Gandall <marvgand at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Good analyses of the contradictory effect of national and family
>> identification, but it doesn't necessarily follow that the global erosion of
>> national economies and cultures will "reduce humanity to a 'brave new world'
>> of atomistic automatons". The secular college-educated urban youth who have
>> been at the forefront of the democratic uprisings in the Middle East, for
>> example, have been the most exposed to global technological, economic, and
>> cultural influences and these, as we are daily witnessing, have served to
>> "lubricate" rather than to diminish social interaction.
>>
>> On 2011-02-03, at 9:20 AM, Wojtek S wrote:
>>
>> > [WS:] One can say that about any collective entity - a family, a circle
>> of
>> > friends, a tribe, an ethnic group, a nation - what unites it is a shared
>> > common identity and a shared understanding what constitutes that
>> identity
>> > and what does not. It is based on objective, observable phenomena (such
>> as
>> > language, co-residence, ethnicity etc.) but only inasmuch as such
>> phenomena
>> > are treated selectively (e.g. for some the birthplace is a defining
>> > characteristic but ancestry is not, for others it may be the other way
>> > around.) But these objective, observable phenomena are intertwined with
>> > mythical ones (e.g. mythical ancestry.) Sociologists call that 'social
>> > constructs.'
>> >
>> > Whether one likes it or not, this is what defines any social group -
>> from
>> > the family to the nation. This collective identity is sometimes abused
>> to
>> > keep people in line - e.g. demanding that women "sacrifice" themselves
>> to
>> > their families and stay with their asshole husbands or demanding that
>> > citizens "sacrifice" themselves to their nation and follow their asshole
>> > leaders. But these tend to be exceptions that get the attention and
>> > deserved criticism. Most of the time - and thus taken for granted -
>> those
>> > collective identities have beneficial effects on everyday life and human
>> > relations by reducing conflict and competition, defining norms of
>> acceptable
>> > behavior, defining the framework of public discourse and "lubricating"
>> > social interaction.
>> >
>> > Taking that collective identity away will reduce humanity to a "brave
>> new
>> > world" of atomistic automatons, so if that is the goal of the
>> revolution,
>> > you can keep your revolution.
>> >
>> > PS. I've traveled to some 30 or so countries and one of the most
>> depressing
>> > experiences is to see the homogeneous commercial culture erasing
>> national
>> > differences. One of the most horrendous examples of this trend is
>> Makati
>> > City in the Philippines - which basically is a nexus of gigantic
>> > interconnected shopping malls filled with brand name schlock. So you
>> spend
>> > 23 hours on a plane, then wander through those cavernous malls and feel
>> like
>> > you never left the United States.
>>
>>
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