> Joanna, I think you are missing the point of this discussion. If
> moral virtues could improve the lot of the humankind, religions would
> be all that is needed.
No, you have completely misconstrued what she was saying and what, very specifically, she was reacting to in your post. She was saying that the poor and working classes are infinitely more humane than the forces necessitating ecologically and socially destructive technologies and that if you want to make the world a better place it makes more sense to start with people who have greater humanity within 'em.
> The point of the USSR being a superpower was
> not their military, but rather that it created enough productive
> potential to a superpower, which takes a lot for what used to be
> backward country. We could argue whether that productive potential
> could have been put to a better use that the military gear - but that
> is beside the point. The point is that their created that potential
> in direct contradiction of the pseudo science of economics tells us
> about "balancing" supply and demand, budgets etc.
>
Who, here, was talking about neoclassical economics? And, um, I'm just sayin'... do you think that the implosion of the Soviet Union might coulda had as much to do with the ways that "industrialization" was driven top down, without much of any kind of workplace democracy, much less any other kind of democracy, as it did with the misallocation of resources towards the military?
>
> PS. I think that most people (save a few die hard idealistic
> intellectuals) would prefer to be rich and live amongst selfish
> bastards than to be poor and live amongst the virtuous.
>
Oh, SNAP, you got me... my political program is all about making sure that everyone lives an equally impoverished life! Your juxtaposition is SO fair and spot on. Also, there certainly aren't any theories of socialization that you've ever advanced on this list that might suggest that the preferences of most people could be something other than innate... and we have no evidence whatsoever that Americans want to be anything other than super-rich... except of course all the folks who want nothing more than to make a decent living working a human amount of time so that they can have healthy families and decent neighborhoods.
>
> Wojtek
>
>
> On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 2:21 PM, <123hop at comcast.net> wrote:
> > I have no problem with smashing property relations and no quarrel with
> the advantages of sanitation.
> >
> > But I take strong exception to your view of the poor and the working
> class. The most dignified and decent people I have ever known were working
> class; and, I tell thee, if you're ever down and out and need a helping
> hand, it's from these people that you will get it and from no one else.
> >
> > Equally, the meanness and selfishness of the upper classes combined with
> the whoredom of their paid intellectual servants exceeds anything the
> working class has done. And this, without the excuse of ignorance.
> >
> > Also, I don't think being a super-power is what a progressive agenda aims
> for.
> >
> > Joanna
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Wojtek S" <wsoko52 at gmail.com>
> >
> > Somebody: "Having said that, personally, I do not see the hopes of
> > mankind as resting entirely upon the feeble shoulders of the working
> > class and poor. The main means of improving humanities condition is
> > through technological progress."
> >
> > [WS:} I wholeheartedly second this opinion. I think that the idyllic
> > view of the downtrodden masses rising up and bringing progress is a
> > delusion, if not a self-defeating myth. Historically, there was
> > nothing progressive about the proletariat itself - and Lenin keenly
> > observed the limits of its revolutionary potential if left to its own
> > devices. So it is quite surprising that this myth is still gaining
> > some traction some 100 years later. The key to the success of the
> > Russian revolution was to free human productive potential from the
> > yoke imposed on it by property relations - only after that happened
> > the USSR rose to the rank of world's superpower.
> >
> > [snip]
> > ___________________________________
> > http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk
>