[lbo-talk] On vandalism and violence

123hop at comcast.net 123hop at comcast.net
Sat Nov 5 15:58:10 PDT 2011


The radicalism of revolution comes from paying attention to reality. The reality right now is that people do not support violence and the other reality is that if you are the 99% you do not need violence.

Violence vs non-violence is not a point of principle, it's something that should reflect reality.

J.

----- Original Message ----- From: "from alamut" <from_alamut at yahoo.com> To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 1:36:02 PM Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] On vandalism and violence

Non-violence is a tactic that usually is successful only when supported by accompanied violent acts. Ghandhi did not win independence just by non-violence, but was supported by a wave of bombings and assassinations (not that I am advocating these far from it). The Civil rights movements were accompanied with urban rioting. You cant separate the two or you'll loose. Black blocs cannot operate alone and non-violence is impotent without it.   peace   Jim Davis Ozark Bioregion, USA, Planet Gaia  check out my books at: http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fAcctID=141735


>________________________________
>From: Julio Huato <juliohuato at gmail.com>
>To: Marxist Debate <marxist-debate at googlegroups.com>; Lbo Talk Lbo Talk <lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org>; pen-l at lists.csuchico.edu
>Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 3:28 PM
>Subject: [lbo-talk] On vandalism and violence
>
>My 2 cents and what I believe it's going to happen:
>
>If the problem persists or grows, OWS will firmly distance itself from
>those actions and take organizational measures to ensure basic
>discipline in its protests and prevent people of this kind to derail
>them.  Because it will become an obligation to itself, to those
>involved in the movement, and to the bigger promise it represents.
>It's clear that the widespread support and involvement OWS has
>elicited from working people in the U.S. and abroad (its most positive
>and lasting outcome) owes much to its commitment to nonviolence.  This
>approach -- in the context of our society and culture and under
>current historical conditions -- has gained for the movement the moral
>high ground in the ongoing political conflict against the powers that
>be.  This is the association people should have in their heads:
>Violence: them!  Peace: us!
>
>IMO, OWS should be matter of fact about it, avoid moral grandstanding
>and condemnatory language, let alone ask for law enforcement to
>intervene.  Instead, without justifying or denouncing in the abstract
>the use of violence, it should made clear that these are also
>manifestations of the alienated nature of social life here and now,
>and that -- consequently -- they belong entirely with the debit side
>of the status quo.  Contrariwise, OWS should be viewed as an attempt
>to eradicate the conditions that foster all forms of violence in our
>society.  All OWS needs to do is insist that its approach is
>nonviolent, re-affirm its absolute commitment to it, and refer that --
>to date -- the movement has, if anything, been on the victim side of
>police violence; that if we are to talk about violence, then top of
>the agenda should be the wars our state wages abroad, the rates of
>incarceration, the impoverishment of millions, etc.  The message to
>those who support the movement, to those it seeks to attract, and to
>its adversaries in the 1% is that OWS will remain a peaceful movement,
>that this peaceful approach is in the DNA of OWS, and that any attempt
>to derail its commitment to nonviolence -- by provocation and/or by
>repression -- will be the sole responsibility of the system itself and
>its 1% beneficiaries.
>
>Internally, OWS should not give these people much more attention.  The
>movement is much bigger than these absolutely marginal manifestations.
>Let the media try and amplify them.  But let's not add to their
>exaggeration.  The powers that be are very disturbed by the ability of
>the movement to focus the attention of people on social inequality and
>the system ills of our society.  Let's keep it there.
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>
>
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