> Well no but there is a range between complete communism and pure
> capitalism: a robust welfare state seems to have helped a good number
> of people become better off with health, nutrition, education,
> housing, etc.
Okay, I'm a broken record, but you can't say this without also pointing out the regulative aspects of welfare: the control of behavior, the labor market, etc. I think shag was getting at this with her up-the-ladder, down-the-ladder comment. Or, if you'd rather get it from some non-know it all intellectual, you can read Piven and Cloward, who wrote 400-page book about it: http://www.amazon.com/Regulating-Poor-Functions-Public-Welfare/dp/0679745165