Carrol
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org [mailto:lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org]
On
> Behalf Of Marv Gandall
> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 1:11 PM
> To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org
> Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Catalonia the latest flashpoint in the Euro crisis
>
>
> On 2012-09-21, at 12:01 PM, Wojtek S wrote:
>
> > I see your point, but by your own admission, separatism does
> > not alter power relations between the classes. It often ties the
> > interests of the working class to those of the elite, which is in
> > essence reactionary, cf. South Africa, Ireland, Israel or post Soviet
> > states. Whatever one may think of the x-USSR, the communist central
> > government was a *significant* improvement to the Islamist, feudal,
> > tribal, or gangster statelets.
>
> Sure, and all of us wish these movements had altered relations between the
> classes rather than spawning new elites from within their ranks. But
whatever
> qualms I may have had about their leaderships and subsequent
disappointment
> with their outcomes, I still believe it was necessary at the time to
support the
> struggles of the South African working class against apartheid, of the
Irish against
> British imperialism, and of the Palestinian masses against the Israeli
occupation.
> Were you neutral? You mischaracterize these movements as "separatist",
BTW, as
> in no case was there an attempt to separate from a federal state. The ANC
sought
> instead to takeover the South African state and end apartheid, and the
Irish
> republicans and Palestinians respectively sought the expulsion of British
> imperialism and Israeli colonialism from their territories. The national
movements
> of the Ukrainians, Baltic peoples, and others within the USSR had a much
more
> contradictory character, in conflict a!
> s they were with a state which was opposed to, rather than aligned with,
> international capitalism and imperialism, and need to be understood apart
from
> the forces which shaped the ANC, IRA, and PLO, which originated as
movements
> against Western imperialism and its proxies.
>
>
>
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